Even if hardcore individualism and agency was a thing, you can still have systemic racism as an ermee property of the whole. — Benkei

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y

Better question for this thread is, is questioning the existence of systemic racism in the US, an act of racism itself? — Benkei

I don't think it would be fair to say this. One has to remember that the kind of education we get - not only in school, but in the media, and in our social lives more generally - militate hard against acknowledging it's existence. The atomic individualism fostered by neoliberal ideologies makes structural analysis really hard to see. It makes class analysis even harder still.

In fact one of the most positive aspects of to come out of all the recent events is the legitimation of the very vocabulary of systemic racism. The fact that people take the pains to even deny it is already miles ahead of the utter silence and indifference to it's coherency as a concept. That people can begin to think 'racism' and 'system' together is already a boon for thought more generally. That's how we win. We take over the vocabulary and shape the terms of the conversation. The right has known this for a long time. It's nice to see a left effort at this taking root.

Even if hardcore individualism and agency was a thing, you can still have systemic racism as an emergent property of the whole. That's why even when there would be no racists, society could still be racist. — Benkei

I wanna agree with this, but I also want to emphasize that the nourishment and sustaining of those properties are collective acts of political and economic decision making. I want to be careful not to naturalize this stuff - one can trace back moments of decision where such structures were given life and then entrenched due to the protection of interests that arose in the wake of those decisions. Path dependency is real, but that we are on this particular path and not others is a question of politics.

I’ve been trying to give the systemic racism theory a fair shake. Here are my thoughts.

The racism of South Africa or the United States was explicit and enshrined in law. That kind of racism was overt and concrete, made real in the countless interactions between the individuals involved insofar as they were motivated by racist ideology. I refuse to conflate that sort of racism with the "systemic racism" being put forward here.

But when the institutional racism has finally vanished and the racist ideologies have been discredited and proven dangerous, what can account for the disparities in the results whenever we view them through a racist microscope? Why is there a wealth gap between races, for instance? Since we cannot find any company or institution paying blacks less than whites, and whites less than Asians—it is illegal to do so— there must be something other than personal choice and will perpetuating these disparities.

I take the "systemic racism" theory to mean that there must exist some racist algorithm inherent in the "system". Racism has left the human brain and has found a new home in “systems and structures”, though it is not clear what those are. Any state that had its genesis marred in slavery or racism no doubt carries with it a shameful past, but is also cursed to perpetuate it. Even though the slavery and institutional racism has all but vanished it’s “legacy” remains. It's in our DNA. It exists in our individual thoughts, compelling the countless interactions—political, economic, cultural—between individuals in a given society, especially as they are demarcated on the basis of their phenotypes. We ought not just oppose individual acts of racism, but we should also oppose the system that allowed them to happen in the first place.

But I suppose it’s a testament to the “system” that we have shifted from talking about the overt racism of slavery, apartheid, or segregation to a “subtle” more invisible racism that no one can really point at but are certain is there.

The problem is this shift maintains focus on the least racist societies while doing little about the most racist. Meanwhile there is still slavery in Africa and the Middle East. There are more than three times as many people in forced servitude today as were captured and sold during the 350-year span of the transatlantic slave trade. There are concentration camps and ethnic cleansing in communist China. And there are no marches for their victims.

One has to remember that the kind of education we get - — StreetlightX

Small point. I'm thinking Streetlight is English. And if he isn't, then never mind. But I'm pretty sure he must know that education in England - what I call English-system education - that has been the model for and provided education for maybe half the world, pretty much does not exist in America. There are gross similarities to be sure, but in terms of substance, no real comparison. American education peaked, for a guess, before 1940, coasted until around 1960 - these dates arbitrary guesses - and has been steadily downhill since. I am not a fan of Streetlight's invective, but whatever he might say about American education, esp. v. English-system education. would be difficult to deny or challenge. If he comments, one can hope he'll be thoughtful.

Probably the only way some folks here will understand what systemic racism is is if we make their group slaves for 400 years then when we have everything and they have fuck all, tell them they're free, offer them jobs in Target, with the other major option being prison, and if they complain, tell them the system is stacked in their favour. (And maybe we'll throw in 100 years of apartheid just for fun).

Do you think that's what systemic racism is?

I'm going to shamelessly plug a previous thread I started where I think my OP is pertinent to this situation. In short: past accrued benefits from immoral behaviour are protected, whereas past accrued damages from being the victim of immoral behaviour cannot be legally recouped --> is injustice.

The politics of responsibility

Probably the only way some folks here will understand what systemic racism is is if we make their group slaves for 400 years then when we have everything and they have fuck all, tell them they're free, offer them jobs in Target, with the other major option being prison, and if they complain, tell them the system is stacked in their favour. (And maybe we'll throw in 100 years of apartheid just for fun). — Baden

If people cannot understand the deterministic consequences of 400 years of racist legislations and behaviors, they aren't really doing philosophy but liberal ideological evangelism.

Kathryn's analogy of monopoly in the video Benkei posted shows pretty clear why things are bad. I recently also saw the movie "The 13th amendment", which is a seriously dark mirror into an almost Lovecraftian overview of the racist systems in place.

What's ironic about discussions about economic redistribution based on race is that it parallels the very same racist policies that it is trying to help undo the consequences of. The government recognises your right to specific economic and social advantages by virtue of your race. They are specifically crafted advantages based on your race. It's not comparable to interpreted advantages based on statistics on race.

I'm very much for increasing economic redistribution, I think America is doing far less than it should but none of the benefits of economic redistribution should be used as an argument for doing it based on race.

The history of racism is a history of tribalism and ignorance, where people justified cruelty and hate based on something we now know is only slightly less superficial than the colour of one's hair. The way forward is to reject this thinking. People of all races are capable of great cruelty because people are just people and their skin colour doesn't matter. The continuation of this emphasis on race is a curse given to us by the past. All forms of its perpetuation are wrong, sharing a skin colour with past evildoers is nothing, how can it be anything?

The responsibility of economic redistribution is a true and real one but the history of America must be shared by Americans, skin colour can't be the most prominent thing that comes before anything else.

Anyway, the way that you use terms like "the white man did this" is absolute nonsense, it's like you're just simplifying all of history for convenience. White men don't fucking agree with each other, the way you talk about group responsibility is utterly asinine. The way you say "we" when talking about white people is asinine. There's a real good chunk of your OP that is so out of touch with reality that it's scary.

The power relations have not changed much since the end of slavery and women's suffrage. — Benkei

Why do you do it? Why do you simplify history by talking about race and gender and then hyperbolize in this way about it? What's ironic is that you only demean slavery by saying this, how can you possibly compare the freedom of a slave and a black person today, unbelievable.

Well put.

It's cute how those who are not regularly murdered everyday on the basis of their skin color get to explain how skin color does not matter. It's like those celebs who, while hiding out in their multi-million dollar mansions, got to tell everyone that 'we're all in this together'. Everyone rightly told them to crawl into a hole and cark it.

I dare say that one cannot be murdered on an everyday basis.

You are one of the funniest posters I've ever come across. To so consistently be such a moron is really quite something.

Well put.

What number of white males have been confronted with negative consequences as a result from the colour of their skin or being a man in the past 450 years in the USA?

What number of black people have been confronted with negative consequences as a result from the colour of their skin in the past 450 years in the USA?

What number of women have been confronted with negative consequences as a result from being female?

Should damages be repaired or not?

Who benefitted from the damages caused?

What has been done to address these injustices?

Yeah it must suck to be such a moron as to not understand collective nouns.

You can barely get grammar right and you want to talk about race?

Come back when you've crawled out of kindergarten.

I'm done with this anyways. For all I care, blacks should just go get revenge if white people don't want to listen. Burn this shit down and take it all.

The final argument of the left.

It's a rhetorical point aimed at those who consistently wish to deny historical and contemporary reality no matter how much it's explained to them. The equivalent of putting their hands over their ears and shouting whenever uncomfortable facts are made clear. What systemic racism actually is has been explained in detail elsewhere in the discussion and these explanations have largely been ignored or misunderstood. I guess because it's existence is incontrovertible and some here just can't handle that.

I wasn't making an argument and your reply wasn't an argument either. But thanks for your opinion. It's also not a leftist argument but a moral one to get there and since I'm white, I'm not really going to personally benefit here. The point being that blacks would be fully within their rights to get revenge and that you and I should be counting our lucky stars that they are only after equality.

And in the end, I'd rather live in anarchy than barbarism.

You've come too late, there is nothing you can do for those people, they are gone. The individuals who have suffered in the past due to racism and sexism whether it's 100 or 400 years ago, they're gone now. You can't repair their damages, it's pretty childish of you to think you can.

You cannot address the injustices done to them.

As for people who live today, racism and sexism are inexcusable. We must do what we can.

I'm done with this anyways. For all I care, blacks should just go get revenge if white people don't want to listen. Burn this shit down and take it all. — Benkei

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and decided not to simply call you a racist but there's no need for me to refrain. You are no different from the people you claim to hate, racism is justified under your worldview.

It's cute how those who are not regularly murdered everyday on the basis of their skin color get to explain how skin colour does not matter. It's like those celebs who, while hiding out in their multi-million dollar mansions, got to tell everyone that 'we're all in this together'. — StreetlightX

Isn't "those" referring to me? I know I haven't been murdered on a daily basis but please don't try to undermine my views just because of that.


It's a nonsense point is what it is.

But if people are saying that there's not a shred of systemic racism in the US then I'd suggest your description of them is accurate. It just seems to me that the term is a bit vague to some people and it's hard to really confirm or deny it. I don't think denying systemic racism necessarily means they are denying all of the things that you might infer but I'm not sure since you didn't name anyone specifically.

Burn this shit down and take it all. — Benkei

What’s moral about that? Everything gets burned down, black property too. We’ve seen that already.

No we’re getting closer to the truth.

But if people are saying that there's not a shred of systemic racism in the US then I'd suggest your description of them is accurate. — Judaka

If you'd read the thread, you'd see that was the case from the beginning. Have you read the thread? It's only 4 pages long...

. It just seems to me that the term is a bit vague to some people and it's hard to really confirm or deny it — Judaka

Which was why it was explained many times over to the point where it's impossible to deny it. Back to point one. My description is accurate. They don't want to hear. Which is why some are getting frustrated here.

I know I haven't been murdered on a daily basis but please don't try to undermine my views just because of that. — Judaka

It's OK I'm sure your mommy will teach you grammar one day.

They don't want to hear. — Baden

That’s untrue, . I don’t think there’s been a denial of racism, only a questioning of your position.

Edit: you’re one of the few insisting that you’re absolutely right.

You’re getting there. Keep going.

I like how you don't understand the thing that you wrote. You are consistently hilarious, never fail to make me smile.

I'm glad you're so invested me in :heart:

:heart:

I'm glad you're so invested me in :heart: — StreetlightX

Oops we’ll pretend we didn’t see that.

Nah its OK :)