I was called a "one note liberal" earlier which is kind of funny because I don't remember the last time I was ever called a liberal. I'm center-right/libertarian. — BitconnectCarlos

In historical and non-American contemporary usage “liberal” means basically the same thing as the contemporary American usage of “libertarian”, and even in America nowadays people further left than the Democratic party are picking up that usage to refer to anyone non-socialist but not socially conservative, i.e. the center-right

https://www.gq.com/story/cops-cost-billions

"New York City spends more on policing than it does on the Departments of Health, Homeless Services, Housing Preservation and Development, and Youth and Community Development combined. In other major metro areas, the trend continues: Oakland PD receives nearly half of the city's discretionary spending( $264 million out of $592 million), dwarfing every other expenditure, including human services, parks and recreation, and transportation combined. A whopping 39 percent of Chicago's 2017 budget went to police, and still the department got even more money, peaking in 2020 with a 7 percent increase to nearly $1.8 billion.

In Minneapolis, the city council and Democratic mayor Jacob Frey passed a $1.6 billion budget for 2020, bumping up the Minneapolis Police Department's funding by $10 million (to $193 million) in order to add an extra class of recruits. But according to the local ABC affiliate, programs and agencies that could actually prevent crime get a relative pittance: $31 million for affordable housing, $250,000 for community organizations working with at-risk youth, and just over $400,000 for the Office of Crime Prevention."

Cops kill by virtue of their sheer existence as black holes of state funding.

America is the comments section of the world.

:grin:

Correct - it depends on which way that he meant it. If he meant it by the definition that you described then I guess the insult loses its humor a little.

More on following the money - state prosecutors can accept money from police unions in the US, which some places are only just trying to curb, thanks to the protests:

"Prosecutors in three of California’s most heavily-populated counties, as well as a candidate for district attorney in Los Angeles, are lobbying the State Bar to prohibit District Attorneys from accepting donations from police unions, citing the possible conflict of interest this poses.

The letter, signed by District Attorneys Chesa Boudin, of San Francisco, Diana Becton, of Contra Costa, Tori Verber Salazar, of San Joaquin, and George Gascon, the former San Francisco DA running to be Los Angeles County’s top prosecutor, says that their proposition comes “in the wake of mass protests following the killing of George Floyd by Minneapolis police officers.”

The letter reinvigorates an issue that has surfaced in recent district attorney elections in the Bay Area. In 2018, District Attorney Nancy O’Malley was criticized for accepting union contributions from departments her office was investigating in police killings. Gascon, too, has accepted police union money while his office investigated police shootings, something he pledged to stop doing at a news conference Monday."

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/01/in-wake-of-george-floyd-killing-ca-prosecutors-lobby-to-stop-das-from-accepting-police-union-money/

Protest 4ever.

topic adjacent :wink:

Inspired by Philip Kerr's thriller A Philosophical Investigation (about a serial killer who preys only (or mostly?) upon other serial killers ... yeah for "meta" self-referential reasons (i.e. is 'philosophizing' a mode of psychopathy or psychosis?)), a story about 'a cop who kills ("retires") killer-cops because s/he's certain they will get away with murder again' is haunting me now. 'Certainty' being the (psychotic / PTSD) trigger. Not sure who this (self-righteous) covert cop-killing cop is yet; but part of the fun will be compromising the reader with an 'eye-for-an-eye cum ends-justify-the-means' moral conundrum. Anyway, a summer project in the making ... To Serve & Protect, of course, as a 'working' title; alternative suggestions, however, are welcome. And someone please let me know whether 'this novel' has already been written (and if so, is it any good or needs a better rewrite).

update re title:

Vigil (alluding to Dante's "Virgil" ... and "Virgil Tibbs" the detective from the movie In the Heat of the Night)

To Sever & Protect?

There's a line that's been well orchestrated in the media about good and bad protestors, with examples of the poor people effected by violence, usually shop keepers and mayors and the like. It's so well orchestrated that I see it here, during family dinners, at work, on twitter. . .

A rebellion is not surgical. Good people do, indeed, suffer. As good people have suffered before rebellion, it should be added. I just want people sympathetic to understand that this is a line being fed, orchestrated, to prey on your otherwise good moral sensibilities. No, good people shouldn't suffer. But the suffering began before even George Floyd was casually murdered while his friends watched. And all the marching, voting, hugging, and talking has already been done -- more times over than the usual highlight of events counts, too. The reason rebellion spread so quickly at George Floyd was because of the number of similar stories that locals are so very familiar with. These talking points about anarchists and outside agitators and what-not -- they are just talking points. If anarchists had the power to instigate this kind of rebellion they would have already done so long ago. You can find black faces that counter this because, as with any human group, not everyone agrees on the right way of things -- but life is more chaotic than that. Some, even if it counters a news narrative, choose to rebel by means outside of the usual peaceful protest, voting, marching, etc.

What does it matter that you have the people on your side when, after all that having been done before, the police continue to grow in funding, numbers, and continue to kill without repercussion?

I'm tempted to be more base, but instead will just say that defunding the police is the only way to have fewer killings -- because at least then there will be fewer cops doing the killing.

And since no one is voting for that -- after all, it is a minority position, yes? -- how exactly was voting, marching, and so forth supposed to effect that change anyways?

But surely we can agree that the police murdering people is wrong, and should be changed. So what then?

Many times the real solution is just to form a new police department. Let everybody go, start from scratch. — ssu

Without addressing the issues that allow police officers to get away with this, and make them really lethal, I doubt that would do much. Cops don't get fired and blacklisted if they've got previous instances of brutality and murder, cops write statements to cover up their crimes, prosecutors go very light on them, police unions resist changes to protect suspects, the new cops would have military grade arms...

Trump desperately wants to inflame the situation and make it worse. Among his supporters, he would look good. Better yet, that Democrats and never-Trumpers would be outraged would be even great for him.

From the conference call with the governors (and from tweets, naturally) one can notice just how much he wants to send the military in.



Dominator in Chief.

You can dream the American Dream
But you sleep with the lights on
And wake up with a scream
--The Late, Great Warren Zevon, Fistful of Rain

'Nuff said. For me, at least.

To Sever & Protect? — praxis

:up:

You can dream the American Dream
But you sleep with the lights on
And wake up with a scream
--The Late, Great Warren Zevon, Fistful of Rain — Ciceronianus the White

:cool:

Without addressing the issues that allow police officers to get away with this, and make them really lethal, I doubt that would do much. Cops don't get fired and blacklisted if they've got previous instances of brutality and murder, cops write statements to cover up their crimes, prosecutors go very light on them, police unions resist changes to protect suspects, the new cops would have military grade arms... — fdrake

When one says that the culture has to change, it actually is about an immense field of work, multitude of things that would have to change. Not only the police, the whole US legal system is basically now there to jail people. This gives credence to the Bayley's view that StreetlightX mentioned.

The question of the police and the security system is just like the question of the armed forces. Is it there to defend from an exterior threat or is it there basically to keep the present leaders in power? Or is the armed forces itself in power? This isn't just a question of "training" and "culture", although those are absolutely essential on how armed forces perform. The changes have to happen in how the whole society itself works. It is same for the police in any country. The Norwegian police and the Nigerian police are totally different as are the Norwegian Army and the Nigerian Army, but so are the societies themselves. Problems in Nigeria wouldn't go away with replacing Nigerian police with Norwegian police. Or one cannot think that one can transform one without there happening changes in the society itself.

There have been good remarks just why is this so difficult, starting for example with the police unions. I think that also electing key figures in the legal system, which sounds great, is also a part of this "systematic racism" problem in the US. Unlike in my country, in the US the sheriffs and prosecutors are elected, which makes the an issue far beyond just the realm of the police force. Americans love retribution and punishment, something in the culture of the frontier or so (likely people know this better than I). "Tough on crime" is something that sells and will get you elected.

What is actually quite normal is that the people who basically live normal lives and have no touch to the justice system at all usually demand harsher sentencing than those who actually know the reality. Vast majority of Finns want harsher sentences and think that the whole system is too lax, but the whole legal system is quite separate from any populist politician to change it.

There have been good remarks just why is this so difficult, starting for example with the police unions. I think that also electing key figures in the legal system, which sounds great, is also a part of this "systematic racism" problem in the US. Unlike in my country, in the US the sheriffs and prosecutors are elected, which makes the an issue far beyond just the realm of the police force. Americans love retribution and punishment, something in the culture of the frontier or so (likely people know this better than I). "Tough on crime" is something that sells and will get you elected. — ssu

The whole "electing your prosecutors and judges" thing has always struck me as insane.

I'm tempted to be more base, but instead will just say that defunding the police is the only way to have fewer killings -- because at least then there will be fewer cops doing the killing. — Moliere

I don't think it's the only way. After all, plenty of police forces around the globe perform much better. Unless by "defund" you mean essentially "demilitarise", i.e. stop throwing more guns at the problem.

More on following the money - state prosecutors can accept money from police unions in the US, which some places are only just trying to curb, thanks to the protests: — StreetlightX

Wait, what? That's insane. Prosecutors shouldn't be allowed to take donations from anyone.

Cops kill by virtue of their sheer existence as black holes of state funding. — StreetlightX

All those assault rifles are expensive. It's great really, the weapons industry can sell their old stuff, the politician can be "tough on crime", and the police get new toys. Everyone wins...

WTF? Is this confirmed?

That's fuckisgusting if true, pardon my French.


EDIT: Hadn't read this yet:

Philly mayor, police commissioner condemn armed vigilante group in Fishtown (Michael Tanenbaum; PhillyVoice; Jun 02, 2020)

The mayor seems to be catching on?

That Tweet's been doing the rounds. And it's true - not only do cops have a domestic abuse problem, they have a white supremecy problem as well:

"In 2009, the Department of Homeland Security issued a report on right-wing extremism and its relationship to “violent radicalization” in the United States. The report’s principle researcher on the subject, Daryl Johnson, later told The Intercept:

“Federal law enforcement agencies in general — the FBI, the Marshals, the ATF — are aware that extremists have infiltrated state and local law enforcement agencies and that there are people in law enforcement agencies that may be sympathetic to these groups.”

This may not be a coincidence.

An investigation published in 2019 by the Center for Investigative Reporting found that hundreds of active-duty and retired law enforcement officers are members of Confederate-sympathizing, anti-Islam, or anti-government militia groups on Facebook. Within these private groups, members often are openly racist".

https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/white-supremacist-infiltration-of-us-police-forces-fact-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/

That you see the sort of stuff you mentioned becomes pretty understandable once you take this into account.

"Since May 29, at least 125 press freedom violations have been reported nationwide by journalists covering the demonstrations against the death of a black man, George Floyd, in Minneapolis police custody. The U.S. Press Freedom Tracker, a nonpartisan website of which CPJ is a founding partner, is investigating each report and will publish confirmed incidents to its database.

The violations under investigation, including 20 arrests, were collated from social media accounts, news reports, and direct contact with some of the journalists affected."

https://cpj.org/2020/06/at-least-125-press-freedom-violations-reported-over-3-days-of-us-protests/

I don't think it's the only way. After all, plenty of police forces around the globe perform much better. Unless by "defund" you mean essentially "demilitarise", i.e. stop throwing more guns at the problem. — Echarmion

Nope, I mean "spend less money so there are substantially fewer persons playing the role of police officer" - get rid of beat cops. Make it a service you request rather than one that shows up to keep "order".

@StreetlightX, you wouldn't think this is 2020.

You're exactly right. Not just reform. Straight up defunding:

"In 2018 the city issued a report outlining all the procedural justice reforms it has embraced, like mindfulness training, crisis intervention team training, implicit bias training, body cameras, early warning systems to identify problematic officers, and so on. They have made no difference. In fact, local activist groups like Reclaim the Block, Black Visions Collective, and MPD 150 have rejected more training and oversight as a solution and are now calling on Mayor Jacob Frey to cut the police budget by $45 million and shift those resources into community-led health and safety strategies.

...It is time for the federal government, major foundations, and local governments to stop trying to manage problems of poverty and racial discrimination by wasting millions of dollars on pointless and ineffective procedural reforms that merely provide cover for the expanded use of policing. It’s time for everyone to quit thinking that jailing one more killer cop will do anything to change the nature of American policing. We must move, instead, to significantly defund the police and redirect resources into community-based initiatives that can produce real safety and security without the violence and racism inherent in the criminal justice system."

https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/defund-police-protest/

Not all cops.

Ah we've decended into parody now.

Some easy arithmetic that's been doing the rounds: if you have 10 bad cops, and 1000 cops who don't speak out, you have 1010 bad cops.

Given the scale of police violence and brutality we have seen - in response to protests against police violence and brutality - all cops are bad cops. Which is a children's-book way of saying state-sponsored terrorists, at this point.

Another man murdered in the streets, this time David Dorn, a 77 year old retired police chief that went to check on his friend’s shop.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/small-town-police-chief-killed-officers-cities-wounded/story?id=71017820

@NOS4A2

What changes do you think the police and surrounding legal system need?

I'm partial to fantasy and considering what's going on, what about "The Blackguard"? :razz: You can call the character Virgil.

:chin:

Blaggard to make it less obvious?

What changes do you think the police and surrounding legal system need?

It’s a tough question. The dynamic between officers and various neighborhoods and communities are too complicated to assess from any one standpoint. It’s simply not as simple as everyone is making it out to be. There are too many individuals and interactions involved that we never see or hear about, and I think making hasty generalizations about this or that group of people only exacerbates the problem.

I don’t think defunding the police goes far enough. They are agents of the state and I think we need to start at the top instead of the bottom.