I want murderers to be stopped with deadly force if necessary. When they get the message that instead of a promotion, their reward is a bullet in the head, they might think twice. — Baden

You aren't this stupid, what the hell is wrong with you? Have we not had threads on gun control on this forum? Doesn't everyone with 2 braincells agree that introducing yet more guns into a volatile situation is fucking stupid? Were you of the opinion that we should arm teachers after Sandy Hook? You talk like the NRA fuckwits who claim that we need more "good guys with a gun".

As for sides, yours is clear and that explains your predictable position. — Baden

Go on then, spit it out. What's your ad-hominem attack on my character?

Are you even reading my posts? You keep repeating this ridiculous cartoon version of everything I say as if you don't have the intelligence to understand what I actually wrote. Do you really not understand it? If so, I'll just stop now because I don't know how I could have put things more clearly. — Baden

Yea I understood you. And we dont need your bullshit.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the state won't collapse. — Marchesk

:up:

Ilhan Omar on how those destroying minority businesses are not part of the protest or interested in justice.

https://www.facebook.com/IlhanMN/videos/254086762346145/

Anyone who is favor of destroying their businesses, right or left, fuck you.

What's your ad-hominem attack on my character? — Echarmion

There's a lot of that in this thread for a philosophy forum.

Yes, I'd love if dumb racist white guys weren't allowed to have guns to hunt down black joggers and that cops weren't torturing black suspects to death in broad daylight. But until I have my wish and nobody is allowed a gun then I advocate that black people arm themselves and defend themselves and others in their communities being victimized. It's utterly bizarre that you would try to deny them that right. And it has nothing to do with being against guns. I want the guns taken off everyone not just black people. Why on earth should they unilaterally disarm??

Black people need to arm themselves with the most powerful weapons legally available and when they see a cop trying to murder one of their community, make a citizen's execution arrest. — Baden

On fuckin' :point: Re-posting this everywhere I can!

Sorry to disappoint you, but the state won't collapse. — Marchesk

Sounds like what the patrician class was telling each other about "barbarians at the gate" the day before the Visigoths sacked Rome. :roll: Just sayin' (though you're probably right).

No, you didn't, frank. That would require more effort. Seriously, try taking it line by line. Tell me what you disagree with. Show me you understand what I actually said. Quote me. It's that easy. It's called dialogue. If you're not interested in that, just put a sock in it.

They have shotguns at the walmart. Go get one in case you need to kill a cop. :up:

Yes, I'd love if dumb racist white guys weren't allowed to have guns to hunt down black joggers and that cops weren't torturing black suspects to death in broad daylight. But until I have my wish and nobody is allowed a gun then I advocate that black people arm themselves and defend themselves and others in their communities being victimized. It's utterly bizarre that you would try to deny them that right. — Baden

Who am I denying any right? Am I saying they shouldn't be allowed to arm themselves? No? Then don't insinuate that I do. You can hold your own in a rational argument, no need to twist my words.

My argument is simple: If black people arm themselves and start responding to suspected murders with deadly force, then yet more of these suspected murderers will shoot first and ask questions later. The ordinary citizens will always loose that fight.

And it has nothing to do with being against guns. I want the guns taken off everyone not just black people. Why on earth should they unilaterally disarm?? — Baden

Because the guns don't help. They may save you that one time someone is killed, in broad daylight, while a camera is running. They won't help you the 99 other times where there isn't anyone around to help, where you don't have warning and where you don't have time.

Guns aren't an effective defense for citizens. They aren't for school teachers, and they aren't for oppressed minorities.

to kill a cop murderer. :up: — frank

There. Fixed it for you.

Guns aren't an effective defense... and they aren't for oppressed minorities. — Echarmion

Twisting your words? I'm just going to leave this here. Your words.

Thanks for the 'advice', but I prefer knives & garrotes to guns; ergo, whenever possible I stay out of gun fights.

Can't argue with that.

Guns aren't an effective defense [ ... ] aren't for oppressed minorities. — Echarmion

Maybe we should run an experiment and see.

Twisting your words? I'm just going to leave this here. Your words. — Baden

If that's all you have to say in response, so be it.

I just wonder what it is about this topic that has everyone collectively loosing their minds? We usually agree, and even if we don't we usually disagree amicably.

Maybe we should run an experiment and see. — 180 Proof

Haven't the US been running that experiment for decades now? In all other contexts, people agree that less guns usually leads to a better society. But now suddenly that's supposed to be false?

I don't think I'm losing my mind at all. Read through my posts. The only "controversial" thing I've said is that the black community should have a right to defend itself with every legal means possible where and while it's under threat. But the responses to that and other very qualified suggestions regarding the possibility of violence as a tactic to achieve social justice have been received rather hysterically.

In all other contexts, people agree that less guns usually leads to a better society. — Echarmion

Less guns for everyone would. If they took the guns off the police and the liberty freaks / racists then they could take them off everyone and it would be a better society. While the police are armed and dangerous to minority communities and the racists are literally hunting down black joggers then that does not apply.

I might not have a say, but he does:

I think conceiving of politics as a war of one group against another or how to elevate my group above others is essentially toxic. I'd say this even in the case of a poor person who supports his class: His view doesn't take into account race, disability, appearance, health, body type, etc. - you can't account for everything which might victimize a person. We should work to empower people and protect their basic rights, not view politics as a war of my group against yours.

And for the record I disagree with the 2008 bailouts.

The only "controversial" thing I've said is that the black community should have a right to defend itself with every legal means possible where and while it's under threat. — Baden

Don’t they have the right to do this now?

Yep. That is the voice we need. Fortunately nobody can hear the stray buttheads on our little forum. :lol:

I think conceiving of politics as a war of one group against another or how to elevate my group above others is essentially toxic. — BitconnectCarlos

Well, if conceiving reality is toxic then so be it because this is the way the powerful act as though they conceive. I think you are not so naive as to not know that.



Apparently, it's a crazy idea the way I phrased it.

The only "controversial" thing I've said is that the black community should have a right to defend itself with every legal means possible where and while it's under threat. — Baden

And the only "controversial" thing I have said is that I don't think stocking up on weapons to defend against corrupt policemen is going to work. What's hysterical about that?

Less guns for everyone would. If they took the guns off the police and the liberty freaks / racists then they could take them off everyone and it would be a better society. — Baden

Where I live, the police have guns and most of the rest of us doesn't, and that usually works out fine. I think it's a better society than the US at least. Of course it's also more homogeneous, so I may be biased.

While the police are armed and dangerous and the racists are literally hunting down black joggers then that does not apply. — Baden

I am sceptical of the added protection of a gun. As I said before, unless you want to pull your gun on anyone who might possibly threaten you, you'll always be disadvantaged anyways. Being the second person to draw their gun seems like a good way to get shot.

The consequences just seem somewhat obvious to me: everyone trusts each other less, is quicker to draw their gun, and quicker to get shot. Isnt a big part of the reason the police get away with killing people because they can always leverage the "he may have had a gun" defense?

Trump does need to shut the fuck up and not iinflame matters further. Let someone more responsible in his administration talk when necessary. Revoke his Twitter account.

It was like 2 weeks ago that a bunch of conservatives in the US took heavy weaponry to a political building. The president approved, everyone defended their right to bear arms. The cops did nothing to stop them. The threats they saw to society were vague, nebulous, undefined. Everyone protected their right to free speech. Then everyone forgot.

Now, the same people are boggling at suggestions for minority communities to arm themselves in the face of the criminal justice system failing them, again. They can't whisper into the ears of those with legislative influence, they're never in the same rooms, they don't have enough money. Their society has failed them over and over again. They face a very real threat. Cops are firing on journalists. Cops are assaulting protesters. The president wants protesters shot.

Think about it. That threat to journalists covering a protest. The ability for cops to assault protesters; unprovoked. The media being blase about a country's leader wanting protesters to be shot. Everyone thinks it's just a minority issue, but they still live in a state where police can fire on journalists covering a protest and hospitalise protesters when not even plausibly acting in self defense. Every person in America has skin in the game when the basic functioning of its democracy is threatened, and it is threatened.

The police are assaulting journalists. The police are assaulting peaceful protesters. This is the pipe dream the 2nd amendment gun nuts have stockpiled for, it's come true.

But they're not in the streets, I wonder why?

Where I live, the police have guns and most of the rest of us doesn't, and that usually works out fine. I think it's a better society than the US at least. Of course it's also more homogeneous, so I may be biased. — Echarmion

Yep.

What's hysterical about that? — Echarmion

Your tone was hysterical not your content. I get the opposing argument. But I know if I were living in 1960s-70s Ireland where systemic discrimination was similarly rife, I would have wanted to arm myself as some did. The British and their bigoted police never respected anything but force.

It was like 2 weeks ago that a bunch of conservatives in the US took heavy weaponry to a political building. The president approved, everyone defended their right to bear arms. The cops did nothing to stop them. The threats they saw to society were vague, nebulous, undefined. Everyone protected
their right to free speech. Then everyone forgot. — fdrake

Yes, I remember asking what would happen if a black group did that and the response I got was "just the same thing". Sick joke then and even sicker now.

Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. ... But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. — Martin Luther King

I was but a youth back then; how much has changed.