Maybe. It's not just about rape though. It's about things like climate change, which is more important. — bert1

This is a very good point indeed, and the most important. It's completely ignored by the likes of "Baden" and others, who are determined to help Trump get re-elected -- all so that they feel better.

New Dem campaign slogan "Some things are more important than rape. Vote Biden". — Baden

We don't know if he raped her or not. But if he did, no one is saying that's right. He should be tried and convicted.

There's also a thing called the real world, which you ignore for false equivalence and delusions about taking a righteous stand by throwing away your vote (which is a vote for Trump, by the way).

If you understand the imperative underside of the kind of "democracy" we have, then you understand that not voting, or casting a vote for someone who cannot win, thus possibly in effect voting for the worse candidate, is a statement of ignorance about our system. — tim wood

Yes.

It's you and Frank Apisa who are helping to reelect Trump by hurling abuse at anyone who feels like they should vote for someone who actually represents them. What you should be doing is calmly outlining what it is that Biden offers progressives apart from not being Trump. Some of these people don't want your poisonous two-party system and don't feel that in areas that matter, Biden as President will make a substantial difference to their everyday lives, certainly not one substantial enough to allow themselves to be harassed into voting for him. So, why are they wrong. Make the argument. Stop the shouting.

Not voting. Voted every year since I was able to, but this year I accidentally threw away my mail-in ballot. It would have been a superfluous vote anyway as Biden winning California is a foregone conclusion.

It's you and Frank Apisa who are helping to reelect Trump by hurling abuse at anyone who feels like they should vote for someone who actually represents them. — Baden

OK, this is actually a valid point. I would hardly say I'm "hurling abuse" though.

What you should be doing is calmly outlining what it is that Biden offers progressives apart from not being Trump. — Baden

All right -- yet one can hardly blame someone for getting frustrated when one repeatedly does so and gets ignored. At that point, is there any sense to rational discussion?

You lost me.

They are just as evil. The power of a President will go sofar as the Senate allows and since that's entirely partisan, it's the two parties that are in control. But those are just two sides of the same coin. If you think there's a meaningful policy distinction between Democrats and Republicans then that would just go to show how limited the gamut of policy options is in the USA. From the Netherlands the only meaningful differences between Republicans and Democrats are gay marriage, abortion and a somewhat tougher stance on immigration.

:up:

If you live in a safe state, red or blue, you should be voting third party anyway, because to do otherwise is to throw away your vote.

If you live in a swing state, then not voting or voting third party is tantamount to voting for the opposite of the two mainstream candidates you would otherwise have picked if you had to pick one of them. So even if you think Biden is a pile of trash, which he is, if you live in swing state not voting for him has the same effect as voting for Trump, who is a pile of radioactive trash on fire.

Republicans and Democrats are gay marriage, abortion and a somewhat tougher stance on immigration. — Benkei

*With the caveat that deportation rates under Trump still fail to match that of Obama, and that Biden has flip-flopped on abortion like the flavour of the month. Oh, and best not talk about Biden's vote for DOMA.

:clap:

even if you think Biden is a pile of trash, which he is, if you live in swing state not voting for him has the same effect as voting for Trump, who is a pile of radioactive trash on fire. — Pfhorrest

I did laugh. :lol:

From the Netherlands the only meaningful differences between Republicans and Democrats are gay marriage, abortion and a somewhat tougher stance on immigration. — Benkei

You leave out the most important: climate change.

It would be nice to have a planet in the future, I think. So yes, I value any chance of making that happen over protests votes that don't do anything and guarantee disaster. Call me crazy.

Yes.

As far as the OP -- I'm glad to see very few voting for Trump. But those voting third party or not voting, depending on the logic (safe state or not), is a bit higher than I expected.

What is the stellar track record of the Democrats that makes you believe they will actually take action here? Surely you don't mean Obama's plan allowing to replace one carbon fuel for another as long as it is less polluting? That will be a fantastic energy transition to ... nowhere?

You leave out the most important: climate change. — Xtrix

What about climate change? Do you seriously believe governments and corporations and people are competent enough to make a difference?

No complicated math here, but with 24 votes so far, with 4% voting for Trump, that means only one Trump voter. :chin:

Biden has been credibly accused of sexual assault. No progressive who cares about women's rights should vote for him until a proper investigation is carried out. Period. And any who do are massive hypocrites. — Baden

My issue with the Baden accusation, I mean Biden, is that only FoxNews seems to have heard the charges and everyone else is ignoring it. It is worthy of investigation and supposedly neutral news' outlets should investigate every allegation equally regardless of the political affiliation of the accused.

In terms of whether I would not vote for Biden based upon the charges, I would vote for him if I agreed with his politics, but I don't. That said, an accusation is not proof. This whole thing of guilty until proven innocent is a disgusting recent turn of events and something we will one day hopefully look back upon with regret. The concept of determining guilt only after all the facts are revealed has served us well in matters far worse than sexual harassment or even rape, including such things as murder, mayhem, and terrorism. My presumption at this point is that Biden is not guilty of anything.

We need to take seriously that calling someone a rapist who is not is a vile act in itself.

I'm very happy for not having to choose between Biden and a Third party candidate. :smile:

Happy with my own President, voted for him now twice (and he won both times). Even if I disagree with his stance on NATO, that's peanuts compared to the insane bleach-injector Trump. Rather OK even with the leftist-centrist administration in dealing with the pandemic.

Yes...I should shut up now.

I would vote for him if I agreed with his politics, but I don't — Hanover

What do you object to the most?

I didn't say they had a stellar track record. Is it better than climate change denial? Yes.

What about climate change? Do you seriously believe governments and corporations and people are competent enough to make a difference? — h060tu

Yes. If other countries can do it, so can we. Corporations, no -- at least not the ones involved in fossil fuels, of course. And not governments that say it's a Chinese hoax. But otherwise, yes it can be done and has to be done if we want to survive.

I don't care about what people say, I care about what they do. If neither party takes meaningful action but one is marginally better, neither of them are looking after your interests.

If other countries can do it, so can we. — Xtrix

I think you're grossly overestimating what other countries are doing. I live in one of the more progressive countries in the world. It's not enough. Corona lock down will be a joke compared to the costs we will be confronted with once climate change really hits. I've already started looking for a plot of land with enough arable land, a self-sufficient modular home and I'll be advising my kids to study agriculture.

What do you object to the most? — frank

I actually went to the Biden site where he lists out his positions. If I had to pick what I didn't particularly like, it would relate to raising taxes specifically on the wealthy and corporations, because I'm tired of the class warfare, which is how this usually plays out. He wants to study the idea of reparations, which I find horribly polarizing and unjust. That alone will cost him my vote. He had an entirely hands off stance with China, and I do see them as a threat and concern. I'm not in principle opposed to tariffs as he is. I didn't like his idea of raising teacher's salaries, as I don't follow how the federal government should have a hand in that very (very very) local issue. He's in favor of 2 years of free college education, which in principle sounds good, but that sounds again like a state issue, considering different state institutions charge differently and private colleges are much more expensive. I'm also opposed to campaign finance reform because I'm close to an absolutist on free speech. His objections to drilling for oil I largely disagree with.

I've already started looking for a plot of land with enough arable land, a self-sufficient modular home and I'll be advising my kids to study agriculture. — Benkei

Tell me all the things your kids are going to need to sustain themselves so that I can teach my kids to sell it to them. I'm just trying to identify emerging markets.

I respect your position. This comes to mind, though, about your view on reparations:

Biden is playing to his base here, just as Trump freely does. Your objection to Biden on this is that it's horribly polarizing and unjust. I could lay out a long list of actions by Trump that were horribly polarizing and viewed as unjust by most people outside Trump's base.

So how do we distinguish between the two here? What if we look at personality? Trump attacks. He antagonizes even when he doesn't really have to. That's just the way he does things. He even routinely attacks people and organization that are supposed to be his allies and subordinates. He eliminates any voice counter to his own in his environment. The result has been that though many might have thought it impossible, trust in the executive has decreased. I think you'd have to agree that in the domain of "horribly polarizing" Trump has taken things to the extreme. And unjust? Biden was just suggesting that we study the question of reparations. That's obviously a gesture. Where's the injustice in studying something?

Let's look at Biden's personality by contrast. He has a long history of working well with people across the aisle. He's well respected across the board. He's a moderate. So even if you don't share his interests, you can feel confident that the government is working well instead of on the verge of running off the rails.

True?

I think you're grossly overestimating what other countries are doing. I live in one of the more progressive countries in the world. It's not enough. Corona lock down will be a joke compared to the costs we will be confronted with once climate change really hits. I've already started looking for a plot of land with enough arable land, a self-sufficient modular home and I'll be advising my kids to study agriculture. — Benkei

There's nowhere to go or hide from climate change. That's pure delusion.

Helping elect Trump all but guarantees we're going over the edge. We have to make our decisions with this in mind.

I actually went to the Biden site where he lists out his positions. If I had to pick what I didn't particularly like, it would relate to raising taxes specifically on the wealthy and corporations, because I'm tired of the class warfare, which is how this usually plays out. He wants to study the idea of reparations, which I find horribly polarizing and unjust. That alone will cost him my vote. He had an entirely hands off stance with China, and I do see them as a threat and concern. I'm not in principle opposed to tariffs as he is. I didn't like his idea of raising teacher's salaries, as I don't follow how the federal government should have a hand in that very (very very) local issue. He's in favor of 2 years of free college education, which in principle sounds good, but that sounds again like a state issue, considering different state institutions charge differently and private colleges are much more expensive. I'm also opposed to campaign finance reform because I'm close to an absolutist on free speech. His objections to drilling for oil I largely disagree with. — Hanover

"Absolutist on free speech" is the reason to be against finance reform for campaigns?

At least I know now to ignore everything you say.

"Absolutist on free speech" is the reason to be against finance reform for campaigns?

At least I know now to ignore everything you say. — Xtrix

The regulation of financing regulates the speech.

Nothing. I'll have gotten it all in place already.