War also tends to favor belief over non-belief. — Cavacava

Wot.

So we're to pretend we've found it?

Yes I understand what you value, but what I asked you to do was imagine that there are those that have different values from yourself.

What if god exists, and intends for us to use our capacity to reason and our capacity of rationality?
After all, if god exists, it will be god that has endowed us with this capacity.

In that case your desire to control what does not belong to you (god decides the fate of your soul, not you), would cause you to sacrifice a gift god has bestowed upon you.

(god decides the fate of your soul, not you)

No. I don't believe that it's a different topic, did you get that from something I said?

Wot.

War of tanks?

If god does not decide this who does?

If I decide the fate of my soul, then what power does god have over me?

I've tried to answer your questions, please allow me to ask you a question. Do you accept that this argument is existential and not logically based, that's its validity is not based on logical truth or falsity.

You actually did not answer my questions.

I asked what if god also values reason and rationality?

I also asked what power does god have over me if I control the fate of my soul instead of god?

I also don't agree with that this argument only has those two options.

It can be about logic and values, especially if the individual or god values both.

How can you presume to dictate as to what is "reasonable and rational" for God? If you presume God exists then you presume that He is good; otherwise He would simply not be God but a demon.

So, for the third time, do you belong to a particular religion or church? Cough it up, punk.

I did not presume this, I presumed that if god exists, then we are endowed with these capacities by gods intent and will.

It seems to me,that for you, the possibility of a good God has already been decided against, in which case, for sure, the wager could have no relevance to you.

Who get's to decide what is good for god, you?

What makes you think that it is not good to be reasonable and rational?

The wager fails if it assumes that reason and rationality are mutual exclusive of good.

I am an agnostic, which I have also mentioned a couple of times in this thread, hence the interest....so what do you say when the priest comes around to you, "keep on trucking"?

Well, there are agnostic theists, so the question was relevant. I find it interesting that your wager only goes so far as intellectual assent. Wouldn't the same logic hold in terms of belonging to a certain religion? Why have you not taken that wager?

so what do you say when the priest comes around to you, "keep on trucking"? — Cavacava

I don't understand this question.

I haven't said that it is not good to be reasonable and rational or that anyone gets to decide what's good for God.
The wager doesn't assume that reason and rationality are mutually exclusive of good, so I can't understand any of your points.

Can you offer some examples of what other religions promise?

I'm not sure what post you're responding to. Are you talking about the soteriologies of other religions (other than Christianity, that is, I assume)? I should think Google would be able to answer that pretty easily.

My main point is that the wager fails if god is unreasonable and irrational and that if god is reasonable and rational the wager is not needed.

The wager undermines itself if you are expected to believe irrational and unreasonable things.
Because if god expects me to believe in irrational and unreasonable things before god rewards me with salvation, then god is unreasonable and irrational and I cannot be sure that I will have any salvation at all.

Wouldn't the same logic hold in terms of belonging to a certain religion? Why have you not taken that wager? — Thorongil

It was in response to this. What do you think other religions promise such that we should take their wager?

When you know all hope of recovery is gone, do you seek forgiveness or do you go steely eyed into oblivion. I've looked into those eyes.

So you begged god to save you?

Doesn't that seem to imply that the fate of your soul is a thing which god, and not yourself, ultimately decides?

If so, then wouldn't you have greater comfort from faith that god is reasonable and rational, rather than irrational and unreasonable?

You are presuming that you know what it is for God to be reasonable and rational. This would require you to be in possession of all the relevant spiritual 'facts', given that there is a God and that there are any spiritual 'facts', of course.

No, I am presuming that if I am reasonable and rational it is a capacity from god.

When you know all hope of recovery is gone, do you seek forgiveness or do you go steely eyed into oblivion. I've looked into those eyes. — Cavacava

You're going to have to flesh this scenario out a bit.

They all promise more or less the same thing: self-transformation and an end to suffering.

So you do believe in God then? Do you also believe that your God-given reasonableness and rationality are infallible? Or might they not be compromised by a fallen state?

Ok, are you a christian, or a theist or do you believe in a god?

I can't agree that all religions promise that, and even if they did the promise is made in very different contexts. In Buddhism, for example, there can be no eternal life for you, only an endless round of birth and death, which apart form your present birth and death, are not births and deaths of you, in any case.

In nay case, even the Christian promise of eternal life does not explicitly promise an end to suffering. In another life you might be called upon to undergo great suffering for great purposes, for example.

That appllies to you as well.

Do you believe your faith is infallible, that you know fully the scope of god's intent and will?

Or is possible that you could also be wrong?

The difference is a reasonable and rational god forgives the fallible for being wrong, and irrational and unreasonable god...well maybe that god would forgive, but maybe it would not, we simply could not know if we would be saved for being wrong.