I don’t think the union will survive this. I suspect some more exits.

The EU has bungled its response to coronavirus and it might never fully recover

Maybe not an exit, just a split. Germany, Spain, and Italy with a few others on one side, France and some Nordic states on the other.

As with any major life event we have proven "coping skills". It is different in the sense of us all having it happen to us at relatively the same time but I think the rule still applies. Do not make any major life decisions until at least 6 months after the tragedy.
The mental health crisis is just starting to come to people as they are able to slow down enough to recharge and the mind starts to process what they did see ie the first responders and what the mind has not been able to see /grasp as people with loved ones die alone to protect the living. For those denied the right to hold the hand of their loved ones during their final breath, they have not begun the grieving process.
We need one another and no one will survive this alone. Together we can push on in memory of those lost, in spite of our political differences. We are being given a chance to reform, recalibrate, reorder our priorities. Let's make sure before we rush back in, that what we rush to is really something we want back.

:heart:

It really goes to show that when some institutions are actually put to the test they reveal how effete and powerless they really are. It makes you wonder why people put so much faith in them.

The greatest mountain fills a trench
Off the continental shelf
In time

I don’t think the union will survive this. I suspect some more exits. — NOS4A2

This is incredibly unlikely.

The economics of leaving the EU are terrible, and it's the worse possible time to negotiate other trade deals. UK politicians aren't saying "phewf, glad we got out just before the pandemic crisis! Now we are free to ... something". No one in Europe is envying the UK right now and wishing to follow suite.

The "acrimonious negotiations" and "each member pursuing their self interest" (ironically said on the right to make the argument "of course it's inefficient and it will fall apart, those greedy nations!") can be said about any EU negotiation on any topic whatsoever.

However, the EU is not in some dysfunctional paralysis; has already agreed to send aid to Iran for instance.

We need one another and no one will survive this alone. Together we can push on in memory of those lost, in spite of our political differences, we are being given a chance to reform, recalibrate, reorder our priorities. Let's make sure before we rush back in, that what we rush to is really something we want back. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

But to be clear, you're saying we shouldn't discuss any of these topics closely, just be contented with platitudes that encourage us to ignore beliefs of many that, collectively, contributed to making the crisis happen and doctors and nurses (and supply chain workers and everyone else essential, and everyone else) not even have any masks? That we need to put our political differences aside so as to avoid self-introspection leading to uncomfortable conclusions about endeared market ideology or things like, I don't know, electing a corrupt incompetent who would obviously not be able to handle a real crisis?

I'm reading you correctly? Or is there something more to your comment.

I think you're like NOS, sections of your soul are starting to rot. Do some art.

@boethius Paint me as you wish, it’s really not important. You can have your last word. Bye bye

I think you're like NOS, sections of your soul are starting to rot. Do some art. — frank

What's NOS?

But whatever it is, to the whatever point you're trying to make without arguing for it.

What's happening here is simply the advanced state of delusion of the American right, and particularly Trump supporters.

That a lack of social safety net institutions would be very fragile against any systemic shock is one of the classic justifications for social safety net institutions; you may really need them, and just like a tree the time to plant them is 20 years before you need them.

We're now running the experiment of which governing paradigm can indeed better withstand a crisis.

(The payout to Americans is admission by republican politicians that this argument has been correct all along. You do indeed need a social safety net.)

It's totally reasonable to discuss it, more-so in a philosophy forum dedicated to high quality discussion.

"It's not the time to discuss politics" is a phase more suited to within the right wing echo-chamber to dissuade adepts from leaving the flock, but there's no reason to expect sympathy with such a position outside the cave.

The absurdity of the left/right divide is in not at leart recognizing the disputes are more in the abstract than the practical, with life varying very little day to day under a Republican or Democratic rule, and life in the US versus Europe being largely the same for the average citizen. If people did stage a rebellion over these differences, it would be for little gain other than for those of ideological bent feeling comfort in having like minded people in charge.

The absurdity of the left/right divide is in not at leart recognizing the disputes are more in the abstract than the practical, with life varying very little day to day under a Republican or Democratic rule, and life in the US versus Europe being largely the same for the average citizen. — Hanover

This is completely false.

Where do you want me to start? Republican vs Democrat or US vs EU?

Paint me as you wish, it’s really not important. You can have your last word. Bye bye — I like sushi

Well colour me surprised.

But for what it's worth, I am genuinely confused as to what your position became after your first comment; so, it's difficult to paint a picture of a nebulous mist, and if I've failed you I do apologize.

This is incredibly unlikely.

We’ll see about that. The EU's chief scientist just resigned from his position at the head of the European Research Council. So, unless Brussels has no accountability, there will be an audit of its efforts during this time.

I think you're like NOS, sections of your soul are starting to rot. Do some art.

Why would you say such a thing? Perhaps your own soul is rotting.

We’ll see about that. The EU's chief scientist just resigned from his position at the head of the European Research Council. So, unless Brussels has no accountability, there will be an audit of its efforts during this time. — NOS4A2

You completely overestimate this one resignation.

To be clear, I share the EU's chief scientist criticism of the EU and support his resignation. I have been just as critical of the EU's response as the US; the EU is better off not because the crisis was better handled by our leaders but because there's many more institutions in place to handle the health crisis and cushion the economic blow.

However, extrapolating this one resignation to countries leaving the block during or anytime remotely close to the crisis, is a vast stretch. For Europeans, the continuing Brexit fiasco is just confirmation that leaving doesn't solve any problems, and just makes problems worse.

I meant there will be an accounting of their efforts, that the resignation of the chief scientist is a sign things weren’t handled well. I wasn’t saying member states will leave the block because the scientist did.

Eh, you're just angry that no one descended to marshall law out of this micro-apocalypse.

I meant there will be an accounting of their efforts, that the resignation of the chief scientist is a sign things weren’t handled well. — NOS4A2

We completely agree here.

I wasn’t saying member states will leave the block because the scientist did. — NOS4A2

We agree here too.

Long term, definitely the EU needs to fix a lot of problems or countries may leave. But at the moment, and for the foreseeable future, the interdependence is so high that countries don't have much incentive to leave and the EU and other countries have a big incentive to do, at least the minimum, what's needed to appease countries. However, this "stability through interdependence" gives rise also to each side staking out a very radical position at the the start of any negotiation. The Germans for instance are always afraid of "perverse incentives" if they forgive debt, as an example, but they did keep Greece "alive".

Why would you say such a thing? — NOS4A2

Sanctimoniousness is like chicken soup for his soul.

Eh, you're just angry that no one descended to marshall law out of this micro-apocalypse. — frank

Italy is in a state of marshal law. Of course, they don't call it that.

For the US, I don't see how you could be smug about avoiding marshal law. Seems like a tinderbox to me and that emergency powers already declared are a big step towards marshal law.

But this whole idea the right has that when the left makes a warning about something bad happening if government non-legal-corrupt institutions aren't created to handle it ... and then those bad things happening and subsequently either inexistent, failed or captured institutions can't adequately deal with it, that this somehow makes us happy.

It's always, "oohh, so you warned us about this smarty pants. Are you happy now that everyone is suffering from what you warned us about!" Instead of "hmm, yes, we definitely made bad predictions and bad decisions and have no coherent worldview that can even process the present situation, maybe we should think about that."

When I started in this thread I was arguing for aggressive containment, exactly to avoid whole economies shutting down simultaneously. You were arguing that I was "blowing it out of proportion"; now with whole major economies shutdown simultaneously, you seem to think that your position was my position and my position was that there would be literally an apocalypse.

And as we speak, there's been a mass shooting of some sort of party goers; one of the kinds of events I mentioned would lead towards marshal law, or then equivalent other than in name only.

Perhaps an isolated event, perhaps a sign of things to come, but very concerning from my perspective and nothing to dismiss.

I did not wish this situation; I was actually really taken by surprise that containment was abandoned. Before that, when things were exploding in Wuhan, I actually thought to myself "well, good thing we have the teams that dealt successfully with SARS and Ebola still around; one good thing about the CDC and WHO and global governance structures, this being on-top of pandemics things -- it's not like Trump messed with the pandemic team in the CDC that took the lead on those fights; like, what would be the incentive?", and I canceled a trip to not get stuck in quarantine... but then no travel quarantines or anything else started to happen, which is when I became concerned.

However, what I do wish is that people learn from the mistakes that have led us here, both in short term leadership decisions but also long term structural institutional wherewithal of society in general. It seems an appropriate topic for a philosophy forum: to learn.

Sanctimoniousness is like chicken soup for his soul. — praxis

Sanctimony, yum. I'm doing a mural inspired by sashiko mending. It's cool.

marshall — frank

marshal — boethius

"martial" :smile:

:broken: :mask: :point:

I think I'm failing to realize that. What's the connection? — frank

To clarify, the question is what is the connection between science and democracy.

When we prepared for WWI and WWII schools and bookmakers focused on American values to mobilize the United States for war. This focus would include a list of democratic characteristics. One of them is... "The search for truth".

You might be aware of the ongoing disagreement between Deist and Christians about truth and self-evident truth. A self-evident truth is an empirical truth. it is a fact that can be verified through the scientific method. European countries were Christian and Christianity supports the notion of kings and a hierarchy of authority over the sinners, that supposedly has God at the top. Democracy comes from Greek and Roman classics and coming from this source, truth is based in reality and empirical information. In a democracy, that is not contaminated by Christianity, there is no god whispering in the king's ear it will be safe for people to return to life as normal by Easter, "such a special day". :roll:

Moa was worshipped by communist followers and Moa had the power to make farmers plant everything deep in the soil with the wrong notion that this would lead to deep roots and strong plants. It lead to famine and thousands starved to death. Just as Trump's denial of the reality of a pandemic lead to its spread before the medical system could be prepared to manage the problem. No one could vote Moa out of office, but in the US, a democracy, the citizens can vote ignorant people out of office. That is what the American Revolution was all about. We rely on science- the search for truth, not faith in someone chosen by God to be our leader. Or we did until education for technology left moral training to the church and resurrected a past of ignorance and superstition and distrust of science.

It's always, "oohh, so you warned us about this smarty pants. Are you happy now that everyone is suffering from what you warned us about!" Instead of "hmm, yes, we definitely made bad predictions and bad decisions and have no coherent worldview that can even process the present situation, maybe we should think about that." — boethius

As my Christian friend said, she is forgiving and loving. Inferring I am not because I do not believe Trump is a great father for our country and I can no longer tolerate her denial of his serious errors and lies. I think he is the wrong leader for this time in history.

My Christian friend is as about as anti-science as a person can be. Science has become the snake that told Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Innocently she has no idea how Trump could have known what would happen and what steps needed to be taken because she does not turn to science to know such things. It seems many Christians think if they do not know something, it is something that can not be known. For some reason, education for technology has made Americans more anti-science and more religious than they have been in 200 years! :gasp:

I didn't forget your comment, but I'm honestly hard pressed to understand where these arguments are going.
Are you proposing an armed insurrection to depose Trump? — boethius

Lamenting the cultural infantilization of Americans. - It appears to me we become merely annoying, but have lost the mantle of dangerousness that might have been our greatest protection. The spirit of the 2d amendment as that a citizenry could at need defend itself, the capacity alone usually sufficient, and the fact and practice when it wasn't. Now it's just deluded individuals who "need" their guns to "protect themselves and their families." So much for arms. -

That is, a corruption of our national character and loss of moral compass. Trump, I think we shall find, is a no one, a nothing-at-all, the evil of him being that he occupies places where there needs to be a something/someone. And as a nothing he's undeposable. The cartoonist creator of Pogo, Al Capp, is the author of he quote, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Turns out he knew a thing or two. And the founding fathers knew we might make a mistake - it's not well understood that the electoral college was supposed to be a protection against such mistakes - and argued that the election was the curative. And now we have the 25th amendment, but without the common sense to use it.

As to actual force against the person of Trump, the time for that was way back when he was cheating sub-contractors; a baseball bat would have been enough and I do not understand why no one did it. Or better, a spanking or two early on. No one learns to act like Trump who has anything decent in their upbringing

I don’t think the union will survive this. I suspect some more exits. — NOS4A2

Yeah, many people have had doubts about the survival of the EU for decades. :groan:

Last person to say that the EU is at the verge of collapse if it doesn't get it's sh*t together is the Pope.

But hey! It's just an assortment of independent nation states. What else would it be, really?

Maybe not an exit, just a split. Germany, Spain, and Italy with a few others on one side, France and some Nordic states on the other — frank

That would look like a clusterfuck. France is smack-bang in the middle of Germany, Spain and Italy