I haven't read the other posts but this thread has probably been derailed a long time ago.

This coronavirus pandemic has proven deadly - thousands have met their end and thousands more are ill with the specter of long lasting psychological and physical harmful effects looming over them. It appears then that there is nothing redeeming about the coronavirus - it might very well be the work of the devil himself. Yet, we know that even the devil must be given his due.

This pandemic has had a, dare I say, "positive" impact on civilization for it's done what I think is impossible - make us recognize the essential from the non-essential and, perhaps, in that knowledge, lies the seeds of a revolution in thinking and living. A lot of what people've been doing are completely unnecessary - you don't need to go to a school for an education, you don't need to go to the stadium to watch a game and enjoy it, you don't need to go out so often, you don't need to be in an office to do some jobs, you don't need to shake hands or kiss to greet someone, etc.; the mobile phone, the internet, and TV are true marvels of the modern age. Notice that in every case, an essence has been extracted and retained while the merely accessory has been discarded. This is essentialism philosophy blooming in all its glory.

If one is to believe the news, there's less air pollution, rivers and oceans have become cleaner, etc. Does this not, in its own way, prove that much of the damage humans are doing to the environment comes from non-essential activity?

How long will this hiatus in human hyperactivity last? Will we come out on the other side changed for the better or will we return to our old ways and forget the lesson of essentialism this pandemic is teaching us?

So you’re a felinist then. — praxis

Exactly. :grin:

. A lot of what people've been doing are completely unnecessary - you don't need to go to a school for an education, you don't need to go to the stadium to watch a game and enjoy it, you don't need to go out so often, you don't need to be in an office to do some jobs, you don't need to shake hands or kiss to greet someone, etc.; the mobile phone, the internet, and TV are true marvels of the modern age. Notice that in every case, an essence has been extracted and retained while the merely accessory has been discarded. This is essentialism philosophy blooming in all its glory.

If one is to believe the news, there's less air pollution, rivers and oceans have become cleaner, etc. Does this not, in its own way, prove that much of the damage humans are doing to the environment comes from non-essential activity?

How long will this hiatus in human hyperactivity last? Will we come out on the other side changed for the better or will we return to our old ways and forget the lesson of essentialism this pandemic is teaching us? — TheMadFool

From my perspective, you've learned the wrong lesson, which isn't that we ought to reconfigure the way we maintain our hedonistic lifestyle, but instead to recognize there are higher goods than hedonism.

So now the predictions for US deaths from the coronavirus are around 60,000. https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/politics/what-matters-april-8/index.html This is a drop from a prediction of around 240,000, which is a quarter of what we were first told.

We could say it's because of the strict social distancing that has occurred in the US (despite the ridicule heaped upon the US and Trump in particular for not taking this seriously and doing too little too late), or we can just say it's another load of bullshit we've been asked to endure through this whole crisis in order to achieve some agenda we've yet to decipher.

I grieve every death like the rest of you guys, but I think anyone who believes in the accuracy of the reporting or the various agencies without considering political motives here is terribly naive. This crisis has obliterated the credibility of the scientific community for those who were already skeptical, especially to the extent that scientists are used to form public policy.

If you call a man a dick does that mean being an asshole is a male quality to the extent that being an asshole means being a bastard to the extent being a bastard is like being a dick?
— Hanover

I know plenty of women who are dicks.

So... — creativesoul

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

From my perspective, you've learned the wrong lesson, which isn't that we ought to reconfigure the way we maintain our hedonistic lifestyle, but instead to recognize there are higher goods than hedonism — Hanover

Right!

isn't that we ought to reconfigure the way we maintain our hedonistic lifestyle, but instead to recognize there are higher goods than hedonism. — Hanover

Doesn't this still imply reconfiguring the hedonistic lifestyle? If we want a cleaner world we should consume less...

Or if we want to avoid pandemics we should take a cue from the Japanese and stop hugging, shaking hands and kiss for greetings.

Or we can learn from the South Koreans and be done with privacy.

This crisis has obliterated the credibility of the scientific community for those who were already skeptical, especially to the extent that scientists are used to form public policy. — Hanover

How so? Most scientific bodies warned of the dangers of a pandemic in this specific case very early on.

I'm sure the numbers from certain countries aren't correct (China, Iran) or incomplete (the Netherlands) but the picture was clear even for me (a layman) end of February beginning of March.

Doesn't this still imply reconfiguring the hedonistic lifestyle? If we want a cleaner world we should consume less...

Or if we want to avoid pandemics we should take a cue from the Japanese and stop hugging, shaking hands and kiss for greetings.

Or we can learn from the South Koreans and be done with privacy. — Benkei

I take hedonism to be the promotion of pleasure as a goal. What you've described appear just to be pragmatic responses to threats of illness. But of course, take whatever bitter medicine you need to survive.

My suggestion is that the primary lesson of this slowed pace of life isn't that we now have been shown that we can reconfigure our world so that remote learning and working, for example, can now become the norm, but it's that we might want to rethink how important the busyness of our lives was to our overall well being in the first place (which I do not describe in simplistic hedonistic terms).

grieve every death like the rest of you guys, but I think anyone who believes in the accuracy of the reporting or the various agencies without considering political motives here is terribly naive. This crisis has obliterated the credibility of the scientific community for those who were already skeptical, especially to the extent that scientists are used to form public policy. — Hanover

True there were political motives, but the American models were wrong. Even the "wildly optimistic" ones overshot it.

I could go on and on about the terrible cost of relying on those mistaken models, but it's water under the bridge now.

My suggestion is that the primary lesson of this slowed pace of life isn't that we now have been shown that we can reconfigure our world so that remote learning and working, for example, can now become the norm, but it's that we might want to rethink how important the busyness of our lives was to our overall well being in the first place (which I do not describe in simplistic hedonistic terms). — Hanover

But that would destroy the economy. :scream:

We could say it's because of the strict social distancing that has occurred in the US

I think they came up with those high numbers with strict social distancing policies already factored in. We’ll just have to say they were wildly inaccurate. The credulity about those numbers and the dogma around their infallibility led to making decisions that should take years to deliberate.

Despite claims to the opposite, the “Swedish model” survives another week, with Swedish doctors and scientists staying course. This week will be crucial.

Americans are trained from birth to be good producers and consumers. Retraining would take a very long time, and it would require a desire to change.

This is a drop from a prediction of around 240,000, which is a quarter of what we were first told. — Hanover

Because general social distancing has been used, all those models regarding virus epidemics can be thrown off.

Spain has now 342 deaths per 1 million. If the US number (now 54) would climb to that figure, it would be well over 100 000. But to double it, then a totally new twist ought to happen.

Speaking of Sweden, hospitals in there have stopped using the malaria drug chloroquine on coronavirus patients after reports it was causing blinding headaches and vision loss.

Another tough break for POTUS.

Must be giving wrong dosages. Hydroxychloroquine has been used for years to treat malaria and lupus.

Because general social distancing has been used, all those models regarding virus epidemics can be thrown off. — ssu

No, the one that assumed optimum social distancing predicted 81000 deaths by August.

Go back and listen to what that Swedish epidemiologist said about how we don't know this virus yet. He was right.

Or maybe it reacts differently to covid, Dr. Nos4a2.

Or maybe it reacts differently to covid, Dr. Nos4a2.

Maybe it does, Dr. Praxis.

Despite claims to the opposite, the “Swedish model” survives another week, with Swedish doctors and scientists staying course. This week will be crucial. — NOS4A2

Nice to hear that Sweden is close to your heart on this issue!

(Btw. those strategic reserves that my country had (and Sweden hadn't), after nearly a month the PPE from the reserves have been nearly depleted and the first cries that hospitals are running low on facemasks have been picked up by the media. And the government again falls into it's normal bureaucratic ineptitude of dismal performance (as usual). Now they were suckered by shady businessmen into buying half a million useless masks (But hey, they were cheap!!!). At least the administrator in charge resigned.)

No, the one that assumed optimum social distancing predicted 81000 deaths by August.

Go back and listen to what that Swedish epidemiologist said about how we don't know this virus yet. He was right. — frank

I was referring to the higher estimates of hundreds of thousands and even millions.

I was referring to the higher estimates of hundreds of thousands and even millions. — ssu

Then you're still wrong. Good social distancing is not the reason the models are wrong.

I'm not working today because my hospital's census is low. Why? Is it because this virus is killed by UV light and it's a bright sunny day? I don't know.

I want everybody participating in this thread to stop, look in the mirror, and repeat these words:

"I have no idea. I don't know. I'm without facts. I'll just stop broadcasting my opinions as if I know what I'm talking about, because I don't know."

It's not hard. Just do it.

Nice to hear that Sweden is close to your heart on this issue!

It’s more so the approach than the country that interests me.

You'll get the answer at the earliest in the summer and at the latest next year or so. You see, the lock-down option works instantly, but the effectiveness of the herd immunity strategy can be seen only later.

And the media and politicians, don't have any patience.

Then you're still wrong. — frank

Never said I was right. Especially about the future.

You'll get the answer at the earliest in the summer and at the latest next year or so. You see, the lock-down option works instantly, but the effectiveness of the herd immunity strategy can be seen only later.

And the media and politicians, don't have any patience.

I’m not sure if that’s the case. Italy has been on lockdown for a month now. We do not yet know what will occur when and if it can relax their lockdown. It doesn’t work instantly, plus the economic and social effects of such draconian actions can not yet be ascertained.

Americans are trained from birth to be good producers and consumers. Retraining would take a very long time, and it would require a desire to change. — praxis

Indeed but I'm hoping for some kind of residual afterglow from the ongoing tide of essentialism.

The mortality rate is falling as more research is done. It looks like this is x3-4 more deadly than the flu. The major concern is keeping the elderly protected.

I’ve seen less a less reason for other people (under 60’s) to be overly concerned as this has wore on. Of course, something that spreads faster than the flu and is 3-4 times more deadly is going to burden healthcare. In a few months this will still likely be doing the rounds in terms of political posturing and media hysteria, but things - other than a hard hit economy - will return to some degree of normality. If some idiots in governments prolong the lockdowns beyond 2-3 months some people around the world will be feeling the economic damage for a couple of decades.

That’s my current view of the situation. Any new outbreaks of this strain will be more readily dealt with two, but there could be glitches as a worldwide vaccine won’t likely cone into play for 2 yrs.

Note: I’m still curious to see the figures for deaths in the UK these past two weeks (will be released on April 14).

If I understand you, you might want to use a term like forced austerity or minimalism rather than essentialism.

It's not just the death rate. It's the number of people requiring hospital care and intensive care and for how long. Flu and related symptoms resulting in intensive care usually lasts a few days. Covid-19 is regularly 2 weeks.

It would overload the system even with a death rate similar to the flu.