have some evidence of them not buying ventilators that they were offered, not testing carers and health workers or providing any protection. My daughter, for example, is an OT in a major hospital dealing with the old and disabled extensively with, count it, zero protective equipment and zero testing. — unenlightened

Jesus Christ!
Did anyone take the time to show an iota of empathy or extend some kind of compassion to what unenlightened just said?
Fer fucks sake, we are ALL in this together and I pray we all make it through this.
Until then grab some grace for what others are going through before fingers are pointed.

Thanks for being a sane voice. :up: — frank

I think there has been many sane voices here, as usually there are on a Philosophy Forum.

I myself didn't think this was going to be a big issue exactly because of the SARS, MERS, H1N1 outbreak etc. and the outcome of these outbreaks. Let's remember that WHO was at first against drastic measures at first and only later declared this a pandemic.

And this is what we have to remember with the slow reaction of the West. In hindsight we may have this urge to paint the leaders to be blind fools walking directly to the fire without doing anything and being blissfully ignorant about the possibility and the dangers of a pandemic. This is just how history is written. Any warnings before about a pandemic, which has been a topic of discussion for decades, is going to be seen as this event that was missed. What is evident is that there is going to be a divide between pre-pandemic and post-pandemic era. Just like we think the people of the era pre-1914 to be naive and we have a different viewpoint post WW1 and WW2. What I've said doesn't mean that really wrong decision can have been made, but a bit of slack can be given here.

What I just cannot understand why US President's have not prepared for these emergencies: hurricanes, earthquakes and pandemics with a OPPLAN as the military does for war. These events do come, the administration is judged by it's performance and even in the libertarian US there is a consensus that it's the government's role to react to natural disasters, pandemics and war. Having a gameplan before would make any government be far more responsive and smart.

13 percent unemployment rate, people. That's pretty effin scary.

What I just cannot understand why US President's have not prepared for these emergencies: hurricanes, earthquakes and pandemics with a OPPLAN as the military does for war. — ssu

They do. But people like GW Bush and Trump are so incompetent there is no language I can think of to make clear just how incompetent they are. Do you remember Bush's Michael Brown, head of FEMA during Hurricane Katrina? Of course Trump is in a class of his own.. Why would a sane man dismantle and destroy our programs for preparedness for something exactly like Covid-19, put in place recently in specific response to a similar danger: it does not make sense. What sane counselors to him would say, "good job!" And as to Trump, one could ask the same questions about almost everything - no, everything - he's done. And that is really what persuades me he is a traitor. No crazy person would or could do the damage he's doing, has done, by themselves, and no sane or loyal counselors would tolerate it. He has guidance in some form or other, and is abetted by his team of the worst of people. .

How's Sweden's strategy working out? — Evil

In an interview published on Saturday by Dagens Nyheter, [Prime Minister Stefan Löfven] warned that Sweden may be facing “thousands” of coronavirus deaths, and said the crisis is likely to drag on for months rather than weeks. Meanwhile, newspaper Expressen reported that his Social Democrat-led government may be seeking extraordinary powers to bypass parliament and force through a sterner response to the virus.

Deaths rising 12% and the rate of infections rising also quickly. Sweden is leading the Nordic countries in infections and deaths by any measure.

How did India avoid this debacle entirely?

I have my paranoid suspicions; but, it doesn't really make sense that all developed nations got this disease.

Do you remember Bush's Michael Brown, head of FEMA during Hurricane Katrina? — tim wood

The guy who wanted to quit immediately when Katrina happened and was replaced by a general? Yes.

Why would a sane man dismantle and destroy our programs for preparedness for something exactly like Covid-19, put in place recently in specific response to a similar danger: it does not make sense. — tim wood

Some people want a smaller government! What would be a better place to save and make the government smaller than cutting spending on preparations against something that hasn't happened?

But oh well, UNFORTUNATELY all those drastic cuts that Trump wanted to make on the CDC, those wily bureaucrats wiggled their way to keep funding for their stupid unnecessary prevention programs etc. But if Trump would have had his way, the US would have been in a far worse situation now...

India acted proactively and unlike most of the "developed" world, instituted lockdowns long before numbers even reached 1k+. Modi is a cunt, but on this he was way ahead - quite literally - of the curve.

Modi is a cunt, but on this he was way ahead - quite literally - of the curve. — StreetlightX

One could say he had foreknowledge on the issue...?

Really doesn't make sense that Italy got decimated and Pakistan, Russia, and India just entirely dodged the bullet here...

Call me paranoid, I don't care. I'm anxious and spastic as fuck.

Er, no, don't be stupid.

Fine.

What I just cannot understand why US President's have not prepared for these emergencies: hurricanes, earthquakes and pandemics with a OPPLAN as the military does for war. These events do come, the administration is judged by it's performance and even in the libertarian US there is a consensus that it's the government's role to react to natural disasters, pandemics and war. Having a gameplan before would make any government be far more responsive and smart.

The response to disasters in the US is premised on the federalist system. The State and local governments own the assets to deal with disasters, each with their own laws, emergency services, hospitals and Emergency Operations Plans. Local and state governments are responsible for the response and preparedness in their jurisdictions. The federal government only offers support if/when they need it. They do this through FEMA.

with a slow response from the government medical sector than the political leadership. So if you argue that Boris Johnson was slow to react because of Brexit or for ideological reasons, then there clearly should be an obvious mismatch between the medical professionals who's job this is and the political leadership

The view is that the scientific advisors were groomed to bend a little towards the position that a lockdown, like in Wuhan, was not required because as we are all going to get the virus anyway in the long run and herd immunity was in the end going to be the natural way in which the virus would be defeated. You should imagine the scene where the head of public health and one or two scientific advisors are talked round by these right wing spin doctors, given the message that we can't risk a shock to the economy right now with the Brexit talks at a critical stage. Dominic Cummings was involved at that stage and the grooming narrative was probably very sophisticated. Plus his disposition of shouting and bullying people to fall in line.

As I said earlier, the main conduit for the virus coming into the country was air travel at this point and no restrictions at all were implemented, no checks, nothing, this went on for I think a couple of weeks. Until commentators politicians and the public were demanding action to reduce this influx and nothing was done by the government. Then the action taken was an advisory that anyone coming in from countries with many infections, or people with flu like symptoms, should look to stay at home for a week on their return. No checks, nothing. This was followed by the government putting out a plea for everyone to wash their hands frequently. Again no checks, no restrictions at airports. The policy right up to the partial lockdown was please wash your hands, nothing else.

I realise what you are saying about preparedness etc. I think the issue was lost in the attempts to recover from the subprime mortgage crash of 2008. The austerity hollowed out the health service, which became more and more strained until it is now on its knees in many respects.

The virus is in the shanty towns of Mumbai now. There's no way back from there, they may be a month behind, but it's going to be gruesome.

I really need a benzo now.

Economic turmoil, depression and anxiety gonna be the new norm, suicide rates sky high. Mother of God.

So why the unpreparedness? Why the lack of strategic reserves for these events? Why the disregard? You do take terrorism seriously, so why not these kind of possibilities?

So why the unpreparedness? Why the lack of strategic reserves for these events? Why the disregard? You do take terrorism seriously, so why not these kind of possibilities?

The unpreparedness is a world-wide phenomenon. According to the Global Health Security index, "no country is fully prepared for epidemics or pandemics, and every country has important gaps to address". The US, however, was ranked first in preparedness out of 195 countries. So they do take it seriously.

The US, however, was ranked first in preparedness out of 195 countries. — NOS4A2

When and by whom? Under Obama, maybe. Under Trump????

2019.

Oh Johns Hopkins those rightist bastards!

You should imagine the scene where the head of public health and one or two scientific advisors are talked round by these right wing spin doctors, given the message that we can't risk a shock to the economy right now with the Brexit talks at a critical stage. Dominic Cummings was involved at that stage and the grooming narrative was probably very sophisticated — Punshhh

Well, surely we'll get the truth from historical studies about the events. If there are articles directly saying this, it would be interesting to see.

As I said earlier, the main conduit for the virus coming into the country was air travel at this point and no restrictions at all were implemented, no checks, nothing, this went on for I think a couple of weeks. Until commentators politicians and the public were demanding action to reduce this influx and nothing was done by the government. Then the action taken was an advisory that anyone coming in from countries with many infections, or people with flu like symptoms, should look to stay at home for a week on their return. No checks, nothing. This was followed by the government putting out a plea for everyone to wash their hands frequently. Again no checks, no restrictions at airports. The policy right up to the partial lockdown was please wash your hands, nothing else. — Punshhh

To be fair, I think you would have to compare the response to other countries (like France, Germany, Netherlands etc.) to see if the UK response would really stand out from other countries. I don't think it would. You can see from other examples that especially in January governments around Europe were totally dismissive about the epidemic, in February few measures were taken and in March the whole thing started in earnest. If the lockdown came for UK the 23rd of March, for Germany that general lockdown came just one day earlier (Bavaria issued it on the 20th of March). Here we had it few days earlier and some Eastern European countries opted for a lockdown also rather early, but I guess the time difference is in days, not weeks.

Citation please? I want to see who the fools are and their foolishness.

https://www.ghsindex.org/country/united-states/

Apparently an anti parasitic drug cures coronovirus. I thought this might be so.

The US, however, was ranked first in preparedness out of 195 countries. So they do take it seriously. — NOS4A2

That is the interesting part here and that study you linked is informative. Especially now at hindsight. In overall ranking for example South Korea for was ranked far lower (9) and Singapore was 24th, below countries like Brazil!

-The US ranked in "preventing zoonotic diseases" 2nd while South Korea was 23rd and Singapore 53rd

-The US ranked in "real time surveillance and reporting" 7th while South Korea was 3rd and Singapore 57th.

-In the robustness of the health sector to handle the sick the US ranked in capacity in clinics at 12th while here South Korea was 2nd and Singapore 15th.

Thank you. I've only had a few minutes to read, but it clearly does not rate political will, and in critical places it refers to documentation from 2016 and prior ("not updated since 2016"). That is, up to and through 2016, good. After that? As I wrote earlier, the difference between good, even just reasonably good, and the obscene atrociousness of Donald Trump, is Donald Trump.

Perhaps you should read a little more.

Some people will never look at evidence and see what is going on. I'm not sure if it is willful ignorance, a personality thing, and upbringing thing, or what. When someone is repeatedly shown to be inept as a leader, and people look the other way or don't acknowledge it, they are either not acting in good faith or can't admit their original pick was wrong. Most likely it is upbringing. Political persuasion is often strengthened by the family and social groups one was enculturated in while growing up. Either that or some piece of legislation affected someone in such a way as to waiver little with the party that enacted it.

Perhaps you should read a little more. — NOS4A2

Always. And have done. Clearly in many technical aspects the US has done very well, although lots of developed countries are not so far behind. And your observation about the US as a "Federalist" system is astute, but half-baked. Trump inherited a system that was a work-in-progress, but that's all it ever can be, and it was a pretty good one, as the survey attests. But it is blind to the effects of a Trump. Bottom line, Trump has run true to form in that what he touches he corrupts and ruins. The hurricanes that struck Puerto Rico and his responses there precursor and warning.

Always. And have done. Clearly in many technical aspects the US has done very well, although lots of developed countries are not so far behind. And your observation about the US as a "Federalist" system is astute, but half-baked. Trump inherited a system that was a work-in-progress, but that's all it ever can be, and it was a pretty good one, as the survey attests. But it is blind to the effects of a Trump. Bottom line, Trump has run true to form in that what he touches he corrupts and ruins. The hurricanes that struck Puerto Rico and his responses there precursor and warning.

I’m of the opposite opinion. Because of the federalist system, any blaming of the federal response is misguided at best, political at worst. Since each state and local government are responsible for their emergency response, each local and state government have at least a large share of the blame in how they react to this crisis.

This is why when Trump mentioned that they were considering quarantining New York, Cuomo said it would be a federal declaration of war, and he’s right. New York is out of the jurisdiction of the federal government, and as such, so is its response to the crisis. So if you want to look for people to blame, look no further than state and municipal governments.