No, sorry, I will not fall in line behind these authoritarian schemes. — NOS4A2

Behind every scheme there is an authority.

Perhaps NOS4A2 hope is now that Sweden is successful in it's permissive stance in order to get herd immunity. But then again, this policy has authorities and their schemes behind it too. Above all, it has NOTHING to do with political ideology:

I agree with everything that guy said. We aren't locking down because we know it's the right thing to do. We're doing what we think is smartest. We'll know more down the line.

It may be they trust the population to implement social distancing themselves to a degree effective enough to flatten the curve, which seems not unfounded.

"Although schools are open, many parents are keeping their children at home. Many Stockholm-based companies made an early decision to close offices and move to homeworking. And those who could afford it went to a self-isolation in their houses in the countryside."

But it's a very risky strategy.

"The number is very similar to the infection rate in Norway, yet twice as many people live in Sweden. While the infection numbers are difficult to compare, the difference in death rate is more clear-cut. By 1 April 230 people with coronavirus have died in Sweden. In Norway, that number stands at 44."

"...members of Sweden’s scientific and medical community are already feeling panic. A petition signed by more than 2,000 doctors, scientists, and professors last week, including the chairman of the Nobel Foundation, Prof Carl-Henrik Heldin, called on the government to introduce more stringent containment measures. “They are leading us to catastrophe"."

https://europost.eu/en/a/view/who-will-finally-get-right-sweden-or-the-rest-of-the-world-27874



I hope we at least get it right next time. Because it will happen again.

I hope we at least get it right next time. Because it will happen again. — Baden

It's hard to predict what the next mutant virus will do.

I think we should seriously start considering nuking viruses.

nano-nukes

I agree with everything that guy said. We aren't locking down because we know it's the right thing to do. We're doing what we think is smartest. We'll know more down the line. — frank

The lock down option is basically just to flatten the curve. Not to have that overflow of patients in the hospital and put the doctors into the worst spot to choose priorities. And then use this time to ramp up the defenses, get all that needed material and hospital beds and personnel ready to counter the possible next wave.

But it's a very risky strategy. — Baden

It really is. The effectiveness of Herd Immunity will basically be seen once the pandemic is over. The results of lockdown will basically start to be noticed in few weeks. Containment with large scale testing would be the optimal policy, but that option has been lost nearly everywhere. The difference may simply become too big and the public outcry for tougher measures might force political leaders to change the strategy.

I think we should seriously start considering nuking viruses. — Evil

That's the American spirit.

No really, when you start to think about this issue as really as an enemy which kills Americans and you can either fight it or surrender, then people will get the right attitude about this.

Perhaps NOS4A2 hope is now that Sweden is successful in it's permissive stance in order to get herd immunity. But then again, this policy has authorities and their schemes behind it too. Above all, it has NOTHING to do with political ideology:

On this matter I think according to principle rather than political ideology. The authoritarian measures have been taken by governments spanning the entire political spectrum. So perhaps you’re projecting a little bit.

On this matter I think according to principle rather than political ideology. The authoritarian measures have been taken by governments spanning the entire political spectrum. So perhaps you’re projecting a little bit. — NOS4A2

But it's really not about basic principles. Sweden and other countries are looking at how to fight the pandemic. If your country would be attacked and the war would not in a far away place, but close to or at the homefront, every nation would enact "authoritarian" measures.

The regimes abusing the pandemic to centralize power and implement authoritarian measures are either already dictatorships or populist administrations, usually so-called anti-elitists, like Orbán of Hungary and Bolsonaro of Brazil.

At least the Trump administration is quite honest about the situation. Pence admitted that there estimates forecast that the situation will be as dire as in Italy. That's the starting point. Honesty is a good thing these times.

think you got that quote slightly wrong. The usual sentiment that I see has a conjunction, not a dysjunction — Pfhorrest

Ah, my mistake!

And then use this time to ramp up the defenses, get all that needed material and hospital beds and personnel ready to counter the possible next wave. — ssu

Yep. Herd immunity, here we come!!!

This is not a war. It is a pandemic, more analogous to a natural disaster, a plague. The coming economic collapse, and the reason many of us will be without work and homeless within a year, is entirely man made.

Well, people are willing to make sacrifices if that keeps a million or more from not dying. Without anything done that would be the case.

I've said it from the start of this pandemic: in this Century (or Millennium) people aren't willing to have epidemic diseases ravage through our population as in the old times. They aren't taken as a given.

This is the creeping authoritarianism people need to look out for.

Nothing new, according to the Second Thought video you posted, though accelerated.

Well, people are willing to make sacrifices if that keeps a million or more from not dying. Without anything done that would be the case.

I've said it from the start of this pandemic: in this Century (or Millennium) people aren't willing to have epidemic diseases ravage through our population as in the old times. They aren't taken as a given.

I think it’s simply untrue that people would have done nothing, as if there was no virus ripping through the population. Only a population that has been trained to await the orders of its masters would do nothing in the absence of their guidance.

True, but I will never stop driving the point home that capitalism is ruled by parasites that will fuck workers not just at every opportunity, but especially in times of crisis when things are especially terrible for everyone. Although asking people to die for the dow should have made this plainly obvious.

The coming economic collapse, and the reason many of us will be without work and homeless within a year, is entirely man made. — NOS4A2

The Great Recession a decade ago was entirely man made. You lived through that. If this downturn is similar in severity, would you prefer the death of 1.25 - 2 million Americans in order to avoid it? White House estimates show 100 - 240k deaths with social distancing and 1.5 - 2.2 million without.

This of course assumes that the economy would somehow not be effected by the pandemic if it were somehow ignored, and also that no one would adopt social distancing without direction.

US had close to 1,000 deaths yesterday. That was a 20% increase on the total in one day.

it's a muck and a mess. it's just a mess.

this 2020ish enough for ya?

US had close to 1,000 deaths yesterday. That was a 20% increase on the total in one day. — Baden

How many of those in NY? I think it is bit misleading to gather data from country that covers a whole continent with vastly different areas int one number. It is a bit like citing fatalities from "Europe" or "Asia".

If I could just vent for two seconds here. We hope it's a matter of human will. I don't think we know that yet because we aren't through it. The assumption that our leaders are supposed to be geniuses with time machines has us turning on each other already. If it turns out that nature really does have the upper hand here, the arrogance of assuming that humans were supposed to dominate it and just failed because they're stupid or evil can have potentially ugly consequences like scapegoating. — frank

Our leaders don't need to be geniuses with time machines. They simply need to observe what is happening in the world around them (or listen to experts that do) and take every precaution when it comes to systemic, asymmetric risk. If it turns out that they were overly cautious, then so be it. At least we survived and we should be happy to pay the insurance premium for that. But if they were not cautious enough, then millions of people can end up dying as a result of their actions.

Note that pandemics have happened before and they will happen again, even if the timing and severity are unpredictable. That requires vigilance and preparation. I think it's fair to hold our leaders and government bodies accountable to that standard.

I think we should seriously start considering nuking viruses. — Evil

And their hosts I suppose? Now that would be Evil!

It is a bit like citing fatalities from "Europe" or "Asia". — Nobeernolife

Any boundary is arbitrary. Using the arbitrary boundaries known as "Europe" or "Asia" and citing the relevant statistics is as valid as using any other, except in the cases where studying the effects of governance or jurisdiction is desired.

Any boundary is arbitrary. Using the arbitrary boundaries known as "Europe" or "Asia" and citing the relevant statistics is as valid as using any other, except in the cases where studying the effects of governance or jurisdiction is desired. — Janus

If you really believe that, you should simply use the world figure and stop discussing the differences that living condition, climate, government action, etc. make. Do you?

True, but I will never stop driving the point home that capitalism is ruled by parasites that will fuck workers not just at every opportunity, but especially in times of crisis when things are especially terrible for everyone. — StreetlightX

As opposed to what? Socialism?

No, as I said, any boundary using any criteria may be used. I'm not saying some criteria are not more useful for some study purposes.

As opposed to a society where capitalist parasites don't fuck workers at every opportunity and especially during crises? Is this so hard to fathom?

The Great Recession a decade ago was entirely man made. You lived through that. If this downturn is similar in severity, would you prefer the death of 1.25 - 2 million Americans in order to avoid it? White House estimates show 100 - 240k deaths with social distancing and 1.5 - 2.2 million without.

This of course assumes that the economy would somehow not be effected by the pandemic if it were somehow ignored, and also that no one would adopt social distancing without direction.

It’s a stupid and bad faith argument because it is not about preferring death to recession. That’s a false dilemma. The argument is that we do not need to tank the economy and suppress basic liberties to teach people wash their hands, to sneeze into their sleeves, to self-quarantine, or to physically distance themselves from others.