This thread misses the point. The problem isn't wet markets and wild food but the increased capitalisation of wild food and the physical pressure on hunting grounds due to mechanical agriculture requiring arable land. This forces hunters to hunt deeper in unknown areas and catch more to stay competitive. It's these twin pressures that simply increase the likelihood of pathogens transmitting to humans.

We've hunted as a species since we could draw and had wet markets for millenia. The problem isn't wet markets.

StreetlightX who seemed to equate the notion of regulating exotic wild animal trade to being racist. — schopenhauer1

That's not what I said nor implied.

:up:

Yes, this came out during a discussion with StreetlightX who seemed to equate the notion of regulating exotic wild animal trade to being racist. — schopenhauer1

Ok, we're on the same page then, but I wasn't sure as your OP doesn't explicitly state the "racist-no-your-racist" origin of this general issue relating to the pandemic.

a) Supporting Trump in any way, and his bungling and ineptitude of this crisis. Nor
b) being in any way racist or being culturally insensitive.

Wanting to shut down wet market wild animal trade has no entailment nor affiliation with a or b. Do you see what prompted this? — schopenhauer1

Yes, it is basically a situation where Trump's, and Trump defenders, criticism is off-the-mark, bad faith, and obviously designed to tap into the racism of his base, which confuddles the media as they don't have the tools to explain both China and Trump are in the wrong on key points ... and just talking trash the rest of the time.

As for the underlying issue, there was a relatively small and powerless movement trying to pressure China into ceasing and desisting from its toleration, and in some cases legal support, for trade in exotic animals that has been going on for decades.

All the reasons doing so is important have been robustly developed, as I'm sure you're aware.

It seems to me that the talking heads in the "research and understanding is not journalism" media, learning about this issue for the first time only as it relates to the pandemic, just sort of auto-generated themselves the false balance point of "cultural sensitivity around the wet markets" to make it seem they have something interesting to say, as if China is some uncontacted tribe without economic, treaty links nor the expectation of science informed policy, and we'd be imposing our morality on these sweet innocent Chinese tribesmen in trying to shutdown the wet-markets (or then put in place safer practices for the small amount of non-endangered wild animals that could still make sense to hunt and trade).

Making this idiotic point of essentially equating China to uncontacted tribes (for which we should note there's no issue as uncontacted tribes by definition can't cause a pandemic with their hunting practices), made a beautiful, the best really, opening for supporters of Trump to defend the obvious.

What the media should have made clear (if they had the capacity to read things) is that "yep, lefty-environmentalists were right about a pandemic being one more 'self interest reason', if neoliberal technocrats are only able to act based on such twisted thinking, to have effectively coerced China into cracking down on the exotic-animal-trade long ago".

In other-words, the whole issue is an example of how the mainstream media fuels the Trump supporters by being themselves pretty dumb and on the same level as Trump in reasoning skills most of the time. It also is an example that the media is right-wing and not left-wing, as cracking down on poaching and endangered species trade is a pretty banal left-wing issue. This has been a big theme throughout the Trump era, of Trump and his supporters attacking the mainstream media from the left: the current global free-trade regime, wanting skilled manufacturing "means of production" jobs, attacking permanent war, calling out corruption, 1000 dollars to everyone!, are all fairly banal lefty ideas. So the idea that there's any real debate in cracking down on exotic animal trade to and within China is another on this list of right-wing media talking-heads unable to deal with Trump and co. taking the common-sense leftist position instead of a false-balance "tiny taste of or mischaracterized common sense but, whatever it is, certainly out of reach in our generation position on one side; and, unhinged and insane position that cannot withstand a modicum of scrutiny on the other side" and leaving it at that, the two and only two views of the matter each with good points and good people who wear suits, that the mainstream media are accustomed to.

That the real enemy of the mainstream media is the left and not Trump is evident with the support of Joe Biden, who will likely lose to Trump even with this catastrophe of a pandemic. It is truly amazing to behold the mainstream media and the DNC do the exact same thing a second time, managing to find an even worse candidate than Hillary. There's a slight chance that they realize the danger to the empire is so great that they really do risk losing everything by choosing "not Bernie no matter who, even Trump", but the chance is slim, very slim.

Sure we can talk about regulation, but we're talking about countless of these markets all across the world in both rural and urban areas. I don't think we can just shut down wet markets because that's how millions of people earn their living. — BitconnectCarlos

The optimal solution would be to both enforce sane health and safety regulations on such markets, and make sure that the people impacted by those regulations are able to reasonably continue to make ends meet while complying with those regulations. (E.g. the regulatory body could fund compliance efforts, instead of just threatening punishment for non-compliance).

The hard question is how do we get China to implement both sides of that equation. A less hard but still probably nigh-insurmountable problem is how do the Chinese even get China to implement both sides of that equation. Even though they're nominally a "communist" country, I'm pretty sure China isn't one to throw money at the problems of poor people, any more than America is. If they were, problems like this would have already been solved.

So, he's trying to blame the Chinese, but not through any coherent argument, either because he simply can't formulate a coherent argument or because he knows that just leads to emphasizing that a lot of time has passed since the Chinese cover-up (so, if he complains about the Chinese actions in December, it's not really a good argument as he did nothing in January and February). — boethius

You do realize that in January and February, both the media and policical opponents were downplaying the Corona thread too, or don´t you? In February, Nancy Pelosi was asking people to gather en masse in Chinatown, the mayor of Firenze was asking to "hug a Chinese", and Joe Biden and the media was lambasting Trump for instituting a travel ban from China. Racist, you know?

So basically you are demanding a 20/20 foresight from Trump only, but from nobody else.

Really, is it so hard to fact-check a little instead of running with the derangement syndrome?

:up:

Nancy Peolosi, February 24:
"We want to be vigilant about what might be on the horizon — what is out there in other places. We want to be careful how we deal with it (coronavirus). But we do want to say to people, come to Chinatown. Here we are, again, careful, safe, and come join us.”
(https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/02/24/coronavirus-speaker-house-nancy-pelosi-tours-san-franciscos-chinatown/)
,,,,nevermind. Bash Orangeman!

Joe Biden, February 1:
(reacting to Trumps travel restrictions)
"This is no time for xenophobia and fearmongering!"
(http://archive.vn/ReRyP)
....nevermind. Bash Orangeman!

Don't see why we can't throw all of them into a firepit.

Don't see why we can't throw all of them into a firepit. — StreetlightX

Guillotine would work for me too. Less greenhouse gases.

Guillotine would work for me too. — Nobeernolife

You're ready to Guillotine Trump?

You're ready to Guillotine Trump? — boethius

No, he is not really part of the swamp. Not that he is perfect, but he vastly preferrable to globalist cabale.

Then you should clarify that.

So, who in the Republican Senate and Congress are you ready to Guillotine?

Likewise, anyone in the Democratic party you would not Guillotine?

So we are living in an age of multiculturalism. — schopenhauer1

No we ain't. We're no more living in an age of multiculturalism than we are living in an age of veganism.

It might be trending on twitter, but it doesn't impact politics, just rhetoric.

Cop out.

The mainstream media has painstakingly created an amazing system of propaganda where nothing is ever looked at critically, with nuance, or for very long, just constant noise from which the important messages can be imprinted on people's brains (from sponsors and elite centers of power); that Trump is easily able to manipulate to his benefit as the system is optimized to provide a platform for elites (which Trump qualifies as part of the club) and is designed above all to serve the interests of brands, which Trump is. Within this incoherent noise, it's impossible to make simultaneously the points "yes, China committed an international crime by covering up a potential pandemic; yes, Trump committed a treasonous offense in diminishing the US's capacity to meet a pandemic, "defend the fatherland", for corrupt motivations of filling the government with compliant sycophants and also a treasonous offense of ignoring the intelligence once it was available in order to protect a foreign entity, the stock market, from harm (however shortsighted that attempt was); yes, Trump is trying to tap into that frothy fountain of irrational racism to distract his base from looking at Trump's actions and words during this situation; yes, China has been committing international crimes by tolerating trade in endangered species, which may or may not be tied to this pandemic; yes, the leaders of Europe are simply clueless duffusses (who also could have acted when Trump was not acting, and could have invested in pandemic prevention when Trump was cutting, and could have put economic pressure on communist China to not undermine the entire capitalist system ... like, almost as if they want to own all the means of production, outflank shortsighted greedy capitalists pigs and, like, almost hold the world for ransom in some sort of neo-colonialist inversion or something, like, almost as if) when those European bureaucrats aren't corrupt, which is often, but luckily a whole bunch of our European leaders are just spineless idiots and can be corralled into doing something not so stupid every once and a while." — boethius

The book "Empire of Illusion" by Chris Hedges begins with an explanation of the Wrestlemania mentality and comparing it to our political reality. Does everyone know Trump took part in Wrestlemania?
What kind of civilization would want a man like that to represent them around the world as their president?

I ask that question because I think we are in this mess because we have educated for this since the 1958 National Defense Education Act. The US has used the same playbook that put Hitler in power.

That preparation for a fascist mentality includes campaigning technics used by the NAZI and leading to the corruption of our media and politics.

David S. Broder's book "Democracy Derailed- Initiative Campaigns and the Power of Money" helps us to understand the money media problem. We seemed to have no immunity to being emotionally manipulated.

And those who respond to every problem with prayer instead of reality, are a serious part of the problem created by education for technology that left moral training to the church. A huge mistake!

Cop out. — StreetlightX

Why? I didn´t agree with your bonfire idea because they were ignorant about Corona. Everybody was. I hate these traitorous globalists because they are so destructive.

Then you should clarify that.
So, who in the Republican Senate and Congress are you ready to Guillotine? — boethius

Probably a whole bunch. For starters, everyone who signed off on those, what, 800 pages of pork that they all squeezed into the Corona emergency fund. Anyone who signed off on that atrocity, no matter what party, deserves your bonfire or the French solution.

Likewise, anyone in the Democratic party you would not Guillotine? — boethius

I am not a walking dictionary, but probably all of them, with the exception of Tulsi Gabbard.

What kind of question is this? As if practices that affect the health of the whole world would be culturally sensitive and go against multiculturalism? It sounds like you would assume someone would use the multiculturalism card on this case. I don't think so. I think that as the whole World, once containment hasn't worked, has opted to wreck the economy in order to save lives tells that the World takes the pandemic seriously. Human life is valued even in the worst places in this World. — ssu

As stated to BitconnectCarlos, this came out during a discussion with @StreetlightX who seemed to equate the notion of regulating exotic wild animal trade to being racist. So this got me thinking that maybe others thought the same way and was gauging if this was just a kneejerk reaction from StreetlightX or not. It made me a bit perturbed actually as I was coming at it from a public health issue, and then unfairly had it equated with individual acts of racism, which only had connection in a very surfacy way. Being against a practice that has caused a world pandemic is neither

a) Supporting Trump in any way, and his bungling and ineptitude of this crisis. Nor
b) being in any way racist or being culturally insensitive.

Wanting to shut down wet market wild animal trade has no entailment nor affiliation with a or b. Do you see what prompted this?

Not so. Likely wild animals go far earlier extinct because of climate change than the last domesticated cow or chicken is eaten. The Chinese diet has gone the other way (more meat). And let's remember that human kind will likely hit Peak population soon as with prosperity fertility goes down. — ssu

Point taken.

ou cannot ban people from being poor. Exotic animals are different starting with the economic scale of the problem. — ssu

What do you mean on this one?

This thread misses the point. The problem isn't wet markets and wild food but the increased capitalisation of wild food and the physical pressure on hunting grounds due to mechanical agriculture requiring arable land. This forces hunters to hunt deeper in unknown areas and catch more to stay competitive. It's these twin pressures that simply increase the likelihood of pathogens transmitting to humans.

We've hunted as a species since we could draw and had wet markets for millenia. The problem isn't wet markets. — Benkei

Clearly the hunting of the bats and such are causing mass pandemics when sold in cramped cages in busy market places. All these things make me think indeed, one MAJOR vector point is wild animal market places. I also did acknowledge in the OP that other factors at work and should also be stopped, like deforestation and climate change. At the end of the day, it is the DEMAND of the wild animals that is driving the hunters and the markets. Hunting by itself per se, as you point out is not the major issue.

We've hunted as a species since we could draw and had wet markets for millenia. The problem isn't wet markets. — Benkei

Who is we? I have never been to a wet market like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGTIs9fvkUA

Learn to read.

Learn to read. — Benkei

That is no answer. Who is "we"? The royal we? Your family? Your tribe? Your ward? All of humanity? You and your pet bunny?
Learn to write.

It's all in the sentence I wrote. Instead of jumping to conclusions that are patently absurd, if something is unclear you can ask questions.

It's all in the sentence I wrote. Instead of jumping to conclusions that are patently absurd, if something is unclear you can ask questions. — Benkei

I did, but you seem to have problems answering them. Name-calling is easier, I suppose.

No name calling occurred snowflake.

1) Is it right to ask another culture to change its practices, when those practices affect the health of the whole world, or would this be just cultural insensitivity played out as public health missionizing?

It’s an age old problem. It’s difficult to say that the British Empire was wrong in banning Sati, for instance, the practice of widows sacrificing themselves on the funeral pyres of their husbands. I think that a cultural practice can be right or wrong, better or worse, and people would be right to criticize them.

But that is a question of Justice. I don’t think such a question could extend to matters of health, for instance cultural eating practices, because it is not an unjust practice, and is often a matter of basic survival.

But that is a question of Justice. I don’t think such a question could extend to matters of health, for instance cultural eating practices, because it is not an unjust practice, and is often a matter of basic survival. — NOS4A2

But the circumstances of these eating practices leads to pandemics. The animals clustered in cages at markets apparently spreads viruses quickly. It's a vector point.

StreetlightX who seemed to equate the notion of regulating exotic wild animal trade to being racist — schopenhauer1

I said it once in this thread earlier and will say it again with embellishment: I neither said nor implied this so kindly fuck off.

So, who in the Republican Senate and Congress are you ready to Guillotine? — boethius

Probably a whole bunch. For starters, everyone who signed off on those, what, 800 pages of pork that they all squeezed into the Corona emergency fund. Anyone who signed off on that atrocity, no matter what party, deserves your bonfire or the French solution. — Nobeernolife

Your orange hero signed off on it too.

Just because it looks exotic to you, doesn't mean its wrong. — schopenhauer1

it...it...it's CULTURE!!!