We do have some democratic industry and Germany has more democratic industry than the US. — Athena

What is that even supposed to mean?

Starting with the God of Abraham all the notions of God are false, so my dear, there is no god who hates people, — Athena

Again, you show that you have not read the Koran.

there are only people who believe there is a god and that their holy book is the truth, and the other holy books are not true. — Athena

Those people who believe their holy book is not true do not count as believers any more. Try some logic.

Or people who share the same holy book and disagree with the other person's interpretation of the book. I do not have much patience for this. — Athena

If you had read the Koran, you would know that it clearly states that it must not be doubted. And any attempt to "interpret" the Koran in a way to turn it into a peaceful, contemplative book would leave very little of it.... if you had read it you would know it is chock-full of hatred and threats of violence against non-believers.

You really might want to do a little reality-check for your PC stereotypes.

Starting with the God of Abraham all the notions of God are false, so my dear, there is no god who hates people,
— Athena
Again, you show that you have not read the Koran.

there are only people who believe there is a god and that their holy book is the truth, and the other holy books are not true.
— Athena
Those people who believe their holy book is not true do not count as believers any more. Try some logic.

Or people who share the same holy book and disagree with the other person's interpretation of the book. I do not have much patience for this.
— Athena
If you had read the Koran, you would know that it clearly states that it must not be doubted. And any attempt to "interpret" the Koran in a way to turn it into a peaceful, contemplative book would leave very little of it.... if you had read it you would know it is chock-full of hatred and threats of violence against non-believers.

You really might want to do a little reality-check for your PC stereotypes. — Nobeernolife

Thats not what all the Hollywood movies i've seen since the age of 5 said, so you sir are wrong!

Thats not what all the Hollywood movies i've seen since the age of 5 said, so you sir are wrong! — christian2017

Not what CNN and the BBC are telling us either, I know.

Not what CNN and the BBC are telling us either, I know. — Nobeernolife

:)

God himself is omnificticious. Prove me wrong.

His genocide and killing when he can just as easily cure, the way Jesus said he came to do is much more benevolent. Right?

We create the gods to serve us, not kill us. Right? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

My comments were based on the assumption that god exists and is as defined, all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful.

I have no proof of god, neither an argument that stands up to scrutiny nor anything by way of religious experience. However, there seems to be a mathematical formula in re belief in god: the strength of your belief is directly proportional to the amount of trouble you're in.

My comments were based on the assumption that god exists and is as defined, all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful. — TheMadFool

You do realize that all-knowing and all-powerful is a contradiction in terms, do you?

You do realize that all-knowing and all-powerful is a contradiction in terms, do you? — Nobeernolife

No. How so?

No. How so? — TheMadFool

Do I REALLY have to explain that?

Do I REALLY have to explain that? — Nobeernolife

You need not but I'd be grateful if you would.

You need not but I'd be grateful if you would. — TheMadFool

If you KNOW what will happen, then you are not free to make it happen any more.
This is an old observation, not my idea.

If you KNOW what will happen, then you are not free to make it happen any more.
This is an old observation, not my idea. — Nobeernolife

Personally, I believe in free will and that being the case, foreknowledge is impossible insofar as free agents are involved in the chain of causation.

God's omniscience doesn't depend on knowledge of cause and effect. Imagine a racing track and there's a genius sitting and the stands and he has one camera that takes a snapshot of the initial position of the horse. From this he can predict all the positions the horse will assume in the race: omniscience.

Now, imagine a fool who is completely ignorant of causality but has a row of cameras taking a picture of every point on the race track. The fool too will know every position the horse will assume in the race but without the need to causally infer them.

Since, we don't know if free will exists or not, god would probably choose to be, just in case we have free will, the fool.

From this he can predict all the positions the horse will assume in the race: omniscience. — TheMadFool

That means he does not have the power to change all the positions of the horse. There goes the omnipotence.
As I said, you can´t have it both.

What is that even supposed to mean? — Nobeernolife

Most industry is built on the autocratic model, right? I said Germany has more industry based on the democratic model than the US but are there some industries in the US that use the democratic model. God of Abraham religions support monarchies and autocracy, not democracy. When we replaced our education based on Greek and Roman classics, with education for a technological society with unknown values and left moral training to the church we got a nation that understands the Bible and not democracy.

Personally, I believe in free will and that being the case, foreknowledge is impossible insofar as free agents are involved in the chain of causation. — TheMadFool

If foreknowledge is impossible, then god can not be omniscient.
As I said, you can not have it both ways.

Most industry is built on the autocratic model, right? — Athena

What is the autocratic model?

What the heck! Why are you so onerary? Mohammid plagiarized Jewish and Christian stories to write a book for Arabs. The mentality at that time was nothing like the loving God religion of Christianity today. The big division in the known world back then was the status of Jesus. Jews reject the notion he was the Messiah. Muslims accept Jesus as one of the prophets but does not deify him. The Christians killed each other over the argument about Jesus being God or the Son of God. How people understood this stuff depended on what they already believed. And it is all built on false beliefs. Humanity did not begin in Paradice. A God didn't make humans out of mud. That is a plagiarized Sumerian story. Whatever, it is the same pot of religious stew and I can not think of any good reason for arguing it is not.

Those people who believe their holy book is not true do not count as believers anymore. Try some logic. — Nobeernolife

They do not believe the other people's holy book and are willing to kill them. When none of the God of Abraham religions are based on truth. They are based on the same mythical Sumerian story.

Reality check we evolved as all animals evolved.

That is a hierarchy of authority. It separates management from the laborer as Christianity separates those born to rule from those born to serve.

If foreknowledge is impossible, then god can not be omniscient.
As I said, you can not have it both ways. — Nobeernolife

You got that right.

What the heck! Why are you so onerary? Mohammid plagiarized Jewish and Christian stories to write a book for Arabs. — Athena

That is irrelevant to my comment. I was simply pointing out that the description of the Allah character is so different from the description of the Yahweh character, that if we claim it is the same god figure, this god figure has to be schizophrenic. I am not arguing about how the religious books came about, I am simply ,making a logical point. Why are you so onerary?

That is a hierarchy of authority. It separates management from the laborer as Christianity separates those born to rule from those born to serve. — Athena

German industry is generally more unionized if that is what you mean, I do not see how that relates to "democratic" or to religion.

That is irrelevant to my comment. I was simply pointing out that the description of the Allah character is so different from the description of the Yahweh character, that if we claim it is the same god figure, this god figure has to be schizophrenic. I am not arguing about how the religious books came about, I am simply ,making a logical point. Why are you so onerary? — Nobeernolife

Since you are the authority on Islam and I most certainly am not, please correct this Wikipedia explanation of Allah and explain how other ideas of the God of Abraham are better.

n Islam, God (Arabic: الله‎, romanized: Allāh, contraction of الْإِلٰه al-ilāh, lit. "the God") is the absolute one, the all-powerful and all-knowing ruler of the universe, and the creator of everything in existence. Islam emphasizes that God is strictly singular (tawḥīd ); unique (wāḥid ); inherently One (aḥad );[1] and also all-merciful and omnipotent.[2] According to Islam, God is neither a material nor a spiritual being.[3] According to Islamic teachings, beyond the Throne[4] and according to the Quran, "No vision can grasp him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."[5]

In Islam there is only one God and there are 99 names of that one God (al-asmāʼ al-ḥusná lit. meaning: "The best names"), each of which evokes a distinct attribute of God.[6][7] All these names refer to Allah, the supreme and all-comprehensive god.[8] Among the 99 names of God, the most familiar and frequent are "the Compassionate" (Ar-Raḥmān) and "the Merciful" (Ar-Raḥīm).[6][7] Creation and ordering of the universe is seen as an act of prime mercy for which all creatures praise God's attributes and bear witness to God's unity. — wikipedia

Since you are the authority on Islam and I most certainly am not, please correct this Wikipedia explanation of Allah and explain how other ideas of the God of Abraham are better. — Athena

I did not say that "w other ideas of the God of Abraham are better". I explained (how many times now?) that seeing how Allah hates the followers of the God of Abraham, it would have to be schizophrenic god of you claim it is the same god. That is simple logic.

Is that really so hard to wrap your mind around?

Industrial democracy is an arrangement which involves workers making decisions, sharing responsibility and authority in the workplace. While in participative management organizational designs workers are listened to and take part in the decision-making process, in organizations employing industrial democracy they also have the final decisive power (they decide about organizational design and hierarchy as well).[1]

In company law, the term generally used is co-determination, following the German word Mitbestimmung. In Germany, companies with more than 2000 employees (or more than 1000 employees in the coal and steel industries) have half of their supervisory boards of directors (which elect management) elected by the shareholders and half by the workers.

Although industrial democracy generally refers to the organization model in which workplaces are run directly by the people who work in them in place of private or state ownership of the means of production, there are also representative forms of industrial democracy. Representative industrial democracy includes decision-making structures such as the formation of committees and consultative bodies to facilitate communication between management, unions, and staff. — wilipedia

What does that have to do with religion? The God of Abraham has a kingdom not a democracy. One of the most important wars in history was the Maccabean revolt. They were Jews and went to war with the Greeks who were occupying the land at the time. The Greeks put anyone in offices who they thought could do the work, paying no attention to a Jewish person's linage and social position dependent on birth. The Greek way was merit hiring versus patrimony. You know patrimony, the way Trump is benefitting his family with his position as President of the US. Patrimony and goes with Trump's idea that it is okay for some people to have privileges that others do not have. God has favorites and rewards them or punishes as He sees fit. Trump. And that is not okay in a democracy, but Christians have the power to impose that on us and we are pushing back.

I did not say that "w other ideas of the God of Abraham are better". I explained (how many times now?) that seeing how Allah hates the followers of the God of Abraham, it would have to be schizophrenic god of you claim it is the same god. That is simple logic.

Is that really so hard to wrap your mind around? — Nobeernolife

You obviously have different information than I do, and I don't believe as you do. Is that so hard for you to get your head around? Here is what I believe is true.

People of the Book
Muslims believe that God had previously revealed Himself to the earlier prophets of the Jews and Christians, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims therefore accept the teachings of both the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels. They believe that Islam is the perfection of the religion revealed first to Abraham (who is considered the first Muslim) and later to other prophets. Muslims believe that Jews and Christians have strayed from God's true faith but hold them in higher esteem than pagans and unbelievers. They call Jews and Christians the "People of the Book" and allow them to practice their own religions. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the "seal of the prophecy," by which they mean that he is the last in the series of prophets God sent to mankind. Muslims abhor the followers of later prophets. This attitude serves to explain the extreme Muslim animosity toward Bahais, followers of a nineteenth-century prophet, who in the Muslim mind is false.

https://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/faithpeople.html

Christians think Christianity is the perfection of the original of the God of Abraham's religion. I think that god is a false god and certainly would not argue one of the God of Abraham religions is better than secular thinking, science, and democracy. Those who think they know God, know God not. We experience the manifestation of the universe but we do not experience God, so there is absolutely no way to know God. People who think they know God and absolute truth are absolutely dangerous.

What does that have to do with religion? The God of Abraham has a kingdom not a democracy. — Athena

I do not see that the "God of Abraham" has anything to do with democracy. To the contrary, Christianity has the concept of separation between church and state.

You obviously have different information than I do, and I don't believe as you do. Is that so hard for you to get your head around? Here is what I believe is true. — Athena

The passage from "https://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/faithpeople.html" that you quote is euphemistic, It completely blanks out the hatred against the "people of the book" that is contained in the Koran and the Haddiths. Read the original sources and stop depending on islamopologist sites like the one you quoted.

They call Jews and Christians the "People of the Book" and allow them to practice their own religions.

This is a typical example of deception by omission. Yes islamic rule does allow Jews and Christians to live as second-class citizens under Shariah..... but ONLY if they pay the islamic head tax, otherwise they get killed. Plus, they must not pray openly, build new churches or synagogues, prosyletize, criticize islam, or marry muslim women.

So by omitting the fine print of islamic rules, we are left with "allow them to practise their religions", which sounds oh-so-wonderfully touchy-feely nice.

The amorites were committing genocide (infanticide) on their own people and they oppressed their poor. — christian2017

We today also oppress our poor by keeping them poor with our taxing systems.

In ancient city states with finite resources, baby sacrifice would have been seen as better than creating starvation for the workers who grew and harvested the food that sustained the tribe, whatever name it held.

To think it was done regularly by custom would have had that tribe eventually dwindle to nothing.

i don't believe it is less moral. — christian2017

Alcohol is the only psychotropic drug known to kill brain cells. For that reason, I think it is more moral to use other substances for intoxication. Alcohol also creates more violence than many of the other drugs we have access to. Do unto others. We have all heard the joke of ---- what would you like to see coming at you in a car. A drunk going 120 who thinks he is going 100 or a pot smoker going 80 while thinking he is going 100. If one is going to get hit, one would hope for a pot intoxicated person over a drunk. Pot seems to be the more moral drug.

Abortion is forgivable but it is murder. — christian2017

You misuse the language.

Its better to die young then grow up in a very depressing and corrupt culture.... — christian2017

Suicide stats belie this.

As to worse things, i find that naturalism and/or atheism leads to a simplistic view on how to treat people so it would benefit my spirits to become naturalist or atheist. — christian2017

I would not call it simplistic, but agree.

The older atheists did not have my full respect until they began forming atheist churches. Those are more like the old mystery schools and those I approve of as then, atheists are recognizing our tribal natures more and are doing their duty to their children by providing an intelligent tribe for their children instead of just letting them gravitate to some immoral mainstream religion based on fantasy and the supernatural.

ok. I make the best pizza in the world but how would i prove that on an online forum. — christian2017

That is a subjective call on your part as it is tuned to your taste. All you can prove is your taste says it is the best. You might like a meat lover pizza while many would like those yucky pineapple ones. I like the hot and spicy so would reject your best as not the best.

Regards
DL

I do not see that the "God of Abraham" has anything to do with democracy. To the contrary, Christianity has the concept of separation between church and state. — Nobeernolife

Yes, Christianity is about kings and slaves, not democracy. That is why I object so strongly to Christianity. It is not compatible with democracy, and a strongly object to Christians having the power to make someone like Trump the President of the US.