He even got "neurosurgeon" Ben Carson to go on TV and tell people it was OK to go to his rallies. Disgusting. And yet Americans will still vote for the guy who would rather watch them die than lose a few points in the polls.

Yep. :vomit:

Your point may have been well-taken if I had been speaking about the origin of corporations and their dependence on humans for that. My point was concerned with the current co-dependence between corporations and the common good (or at least what is generally seen by our society and its individuals to be the common good; i.e modern medicine, comprehensive health care, social welfare, the benefits of technology, comfort, convenience etc, etc, the financing of all of which are dependent on our present growth economy, and will continue to be so unless the population begins to diminish instead of growing). — Janus

Even a parasitic worm can at times help it's host in one way or another, but that doesn't mean it isn't a parasite because it does so. Corporations are created to increase the wealth of their owners regardless of whether or not they are doing it for the "common good". Both capitalism and socialist propaganda talk about the virtues of their ideologies and the "evils" of other ideology (if you ever been in debates about Ayn Rand's philosophies and other topics you might be aware of such arguments), but all ideologies at the end of the day are merely a ideology and none of them are really so great that they solve ALL problems better than all other ideology just as if your only tool is a hammer everything will look like a nail to you.

Also the idea that EVERYTHING we take for granted in our modern world is dependent on corporations since there are many organizations that provide for the public good that are not corporations themselves. Also the problem people have with corporations is that not necessarily that they exist, but that the US and other governments don't actively regulate them as well as they should, and this is partly because because lobbyist money/bribes to politician often influence them to look the other when they are causing problems and/or write laws that favor them at the expense of other people.

Cynical me: The silver lining is that people at Trump rallies have a higher chance of getting the disease and dying.

But seriously I hope it won't overload the US cats system but I'm pretty certain it will unless there's a full lock down in the US banking internal flights.

Btw, if this is still a thing come election time I'm sure they will postpone it and Trump will remain president.

The case of Italy seems to have shocked Europe into more drastic action. Germany is taking steps to shut down public life. I suspect most other countries (that haven't already done so) will follow.

Would travel restrictions still be useful? Or is the only thing left to do to avoid contact with other humans as much as possible?

As you might expect I see it differently. I try to think of the countless cases of “letting the government do what they’re supposed to do” and come up with little more than state-sanctioned oppression. But that’s one of the joys of being raised in a relatively free society: one can remain ignorant of the battles it took to achieve it, mostly because he’s too busy enjoying his freedoms to bother fighting for them. It reminds me of the George Bernard Shaw quote: “Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.”

But whether it was Apartheid or the Iron Curtain, whether it was Jim Crow or slavery, in nearly ever case the end of oppression and persecution was achieved not because of the government, but in spite of it.

The Netherlands is not one of them. I've decided to keep my kids home and I'm working from home.

The Netherlands is not one of them. I've decided to keep my kids home and I'm working from home. — Benkei

Things may change quickly though. 2 days ago, the only measure in my state was that large gatherings were canceled. Today it was announced that all schools, kindergardens etc. will close on Monday for 5 weeks. If the infections don't slow down markedly, I suspect all non-essential services will shut down in a week.

True. But each day counts.

You can't have your cake and eat it too with fake news media on the one hand and journalists being the main source of correct information for a pandemic on the other. All your arguments are, what they call in Dutch a gelegenheidsargument, eg. arguments for expediency to fit a world view that is simply not logically consistent (or as @Maw put it succinctly, stupid).

Has the corona-virus epidemic effected your life yet? — ssu

Starting next week my office is working from The Winchester home until this all blows over.

And don't forget Trump's first response, it's the new hoax of the Democrats! America has tackled the coronavirus! — ssu

Falling for the fake news again? Trump did NOT say the virus is the hoax. He said the politicizing by the Democrats is their new hoax. And he is correct.

Why are many Trump haters so gullible?

Why are many Trump haters so gullible? — Nobeernolife

The same reason many Trump supporters are so gullible. Because many people are gullible.

Hence this has nothing to do with the corona-virus. Which is quite typical. Because that's what I get from Trump's response too. — ssu

The open borders with hordes in unchecked crossers have everything to do with the Corona virus. Get real.

The open borders with hordes in unchecked crossers have everything to do with the Corona virus. Get real. — Nobeernolife

You're absolutely right. China opening their borders and allowing American citizens in to catch the disease and then fly back home is the root cause. I guess we should have shut down all travel years ago.

Every Western government actively pursues growth. When environment and growth conflict, they will pursue growth. The concepts of wealth in its broadest sense and growth still haven't been integrated to make sensible policies — Benkei

I agree, the system based on growth is a system-inherend problem. We have to address that, i,e, by shifting growth from physical growth to service industries. However, the notion that shithole countries with their massive environmental destruction and pollution are better for the environment than richer countries is deluded. I.e. take a look at a satelite photo of Tahiti and the Domician republic. You can see who destroys the forests and pollutes the ocean.

You're absolutely right. China opening their borders and allowing American citizens in to catch the disease and then fly back home is the root cause. I guess we should have shut down all travel years ago. — Michael

Misguided attempt at sarcasm. Why do you think China restricts travel from Wuhan province? Why do we have the concept of quarantene at all?
Crickets...

The same reason many Trump supporters are so gullible. Because many people are gullible. — Michael

True, many people are gullible. However, looking at both sides I find that the typical consumers of fake media talking points are Trump haters. I assume there are tunnel-visioned Trump fans out there too, but I don´t really see many glaring example of parrotting blatant false talking points, like yours about Trump supposedly calling the virus a hoax. Simply looking at the source footage should clarify that.... instead many people simply parrot the fake CNN talking point.

Misguided attempt at sarcasm. Why do you think China restricts travel from Wuhan province? Why do we have the concept of quarantene at all?
Crickets... — Nobeernolife

So, why didn't Trump close the borders 2 weeks ago?

I assume there are tunnel-visioned Trump fans out there too, but I don´t really see many glaring example of parrotting blatant false talking points — Nobeernolife

Do you have a mirror?

It was never the point I was making and any case worse policy abroad doesn't excuse our own bad policy. It's kind of exclaiming that dying from corona isn't so bad because you could be dying much more painfully from ebola.

So, why didn't Trump close the borders 2 weeks ago? — Echarmion

Because he is not perfect and does not have divine foresight? Like everybody else, apparently? Do you apply strict criteria to your preferred politician, whoever that is?

t was never the point I was making and any case worse policy abroad doesn't excuse our own bad policy. It's kind of exclaiming that dying from corona isn't so bad because you could be dying much more painfully from ebola. — Benkei

Too many crossed messages here, so I don´t know what your point was. In any case, what exactly exactly is the policy failure that you are criticising? Frankly, afaic, politicians are blundering all over in regard to this Corona thing, and since there are so many unknowns about it, this is a case where I can not blame them too much. (Except for the clowns at the WHO, who are so clearly and blatantly in China`s pocket)

Because he is not perfect and does not have divine foresight? Like everybody else, apparently? Do you apply strict criteria to your preferred politician, whoever that is? — Nobeernolife

So you think he made a mistake there? Everyone makes mistakes, right?

So you think he made a mistake there? Everyone makes mistakes, right? — Echarmion

I do not know if he made a "mistake", and neither do you. He re-assured the public, appointed a Corona zar to coordinate the response, and ordered travel restrictions, all of which looks reasonab le to me. If better actions were possible, maybe, probably. But I do not automatically switch to "orangeman baaaad!!" mode like so many. (I.e. the CNN consumers)

I do not know if he made a "mistake", and neither do you. He re-assured the public, appointed a Corona zar to coordinate the response, and ordered travel restrictions, all of which looks reasonab le to me. If better actions were possible, maybe, probably. But I do not automatically switch to "orangeman baaaad!!" mode like so many. (I.e. the CNN consumers) — Nobeernolife

I am not asking you if you "know" he made a mistake. I am asking you if you think he did. As in, do you think he should have taken different measures, and sooner, given the information you have.

You claim to be the reasonable and sane person here. Yet you refuse to give a clear answer to an innocuous question. "I think Trump made a mistake" isn't "Orange man bad".

The only way to combat a bad guy with a virus, is with a good guy with a virus.

I don´t really see many glaring example of parrotting blatant false talking points, like yours about Trump supposedly calling the virus a hoax. — Nobeernolife

I didn't say that Trump called the virus a hoax.

And if you want glaring examples of parroting blatant false talking points from Trump supporters, just look at their accusations re. Biden and Ukraine, or the FBI and Mueller investigation into the Trump campaign being some Deep State or Democrat conspiracy.

I only said that healthcare systems vary from state to state, so treating it like a military or federal problem is misguided at best, disastrous at worse. With such a large scale problem federal agencies risk becoming too thin. They might as well use the infrastructure and systems already in place. — NOS4A2

Now you got me totally confused? What are you implying here?

That it's a measure of EITHER the federal agencies OR local authorities handle the issue? That's nonsense!

Look, a central coordinator is needed when face a threat like a pandemic. Local authorities, workplaces and schools etc. can decide themselves what to do just as an individual can decide what to do. Yet tackling a pandemic simply isn't something ONLY left to the individual and various communities. It is about making a uniform quick response. To get ready for a possible larger outbreak. You ideological issues simply

This is the second time you’ve brought up Japanese invasion in a thread about a pandemic. — NOS4A2

Because you utterly fail to understand the need for a concentrated effort that is simply necessitated by practical reasons here and is in no way a plot to undermine individual liberty or state/communal independence.

Just as it would be preposterous for every 50 states to create their own armed forces with their own command structures, own logistics systems etc without any unification and coordination, so it is whimsical to think that there wouldn't be synergy and genuine benefits in having a single federal institution like the CDC in preventing disease outbreaks and giving guidelines on what to do.

But I guess common sense doesn't mean a thing when it comes ideological issues, so this discussion is rather futile.

Cynical me: The silver lining is that people at Trump rallies have a higher chance of getting the disease and dying. — Benkei

That's a bit harsh.

At least Trump has had the opportunity to get the corona-virus from an evil European Latino foreigner:

A Brazilian official President Donald Trump met with over the weekend has tested positive for the coronavirus, but Trump said Thursday he's "not concerned" about their interaction.

Fabio Wajngarten, press secretary for Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro, posed for a picture with Trump, Vice President Mike Pence and Bolsonaro at Trump's Florida resort over the weekend that he posted on Instagram. The press office at Brazil's presidential palace confirmed to NBC News Thursday that Wajngarten had tested positive for the coronavirus.

Make Brazil Great again! Trump, Pence and a Corona-virus patient:

Sue me. I have horrible thoughts all the time. Like castrating any man who harms my little girl or wife.