• Lif3r
    386
    "Life is meaningless" is something people like to say to one another on these two (and probably more) principles:

    1.) Because reality isn't fully consistent in tangibility, life has no foundation in existence or serves no purpose

    2.) Because we are tiny we can't be significant in existence

    And I disagree.

    Reality exists. I don't give a damn if it is all an illusion in the mind or if I am linked to a computer or if my reality is different than yours or from the reality of dimension pi zeta^3649. I wake up everyday and it's the same reality, and sure things around me change, and I change, but to the basis I know that I exist and I know that this is my reality because I experience it day in and day out.

    Sure it's interesting to think about, the idea that there is more to reality than meets the eye and that by further understanding and investigating this we can come to more conclusions, but it certainly isn't an excuse to ignore the ethics or fundamental principles of the reality that you or I are experiencing right now. Try not to kill each other and gravity. Simple concepts that most humans have evolved and inherited to comprehend as valuable for existence. Utilized to survive and to become increasingly more aware of existence. The basic guidelines of existence are explanatory from our predecessors of knowledge and from our further personal witness of social and physical phenomenon. We may not understand all of reality, but we comprehend the one we perceive enough to be able to recognize it. I think therefore I am. Lot of words to further explain essentially the same thing.

    And

    Just because biology of earth is a small fraction of a small portion of the universe does not mean we are insignificant. Life is significant because it exists. Everything is significant because it exists. Existence cannot exist without existing and so it must exist in order to retain it's significance of existence which is to... you guessed it... exist. That's the purpose of existence itself to it's very root.
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    I agree and would go a step further than to say that existence is not only significant but that life doesn’t make any sense in the sense of how is it even possible(?) To me, life is miraculous.
  • IuriiVovchenko
    17
    Life is full of meaning. From my childhood atheists pushed idea of endless universe and how tiny Earth was compared to cosmos. While human life was just product of evolution and had no meaning. Well. These days we've got simulation hypothesis which finally can scientifically reverse this trend and make Life full of meaning again.
  • Marlon
    4
    Several quarrels I have with the above discussion and then my humble opinion in regards to the context of the question raised:
    • The quote below postulates the equation between ethics and the question of meaning - I think you should first define what you understand as meaning for us to discuss its relations to ethics:
    but it certainly isn't an excuse to ignore the ethics or fundamental principles of the reality that youLif3r

    • By the following quote I assume you mean "try no to kill each other" is a given postulate of existence shared by all humans. Reading between the lines in regards to my previous question - it looks like you equate between meaning and such postulates. Well I will have to say that given human history I would say the postulate should be - try no to get killed whenever possible. Humans have (and do) kill when they can do it with impunity:
    Try not to kill each other and gravity.Lif3r

    • The following quote is the same as saying the propose of blue is being blue, you can also say the purpose of human is being human, the purpose of meaning is meaning, etc...That brings back the first question - define what is meaning, so we can discuss your view:
    Existence cannot exist without existing and so it must exist in order to retain it's significance of existence which is to... you guessed it... exist. That's the purpose of existence itself to it's very root.Lif3r


    There is much to say about what is meaning and what is life - and I have strong views about the path to such an inquiry. But the definition of meaning is at the heart of it - I based my observation in belief of fundamental similarity by which we perceive the world outside and inside us: physiology and psychology. I can attest to why I also believe in such explanations of the world - but that was not the question raised.
    The question takes fault with the two suggested postulates. My first responses to those postulates is as follows:
    Because reality isn't fully consistent in tangibility, life has no foundation in existence or serves no purposeLif3r
    I assume the meaning here is - because we cannot fully explain the world, we cannot explain our existence in the world and from that derive a notion of purpose. Well I do believe we can "explain" the world, or at least provide a clear path for such explanation (in the most broader of terms). But "purpose" is what you are seeking and discussions about evolution and chemistry just explain the world. The fact something "exists" doesn't mean it has a purpose. If I am correct you define purpose as the quality of being in existence - good for you, but that also means that you have the same "purpose" as the emptiness of space. And I have no fault with that - it's a question of definition. But it does seem like a simple explanation thought long ago and not a new idea - you just have to look it up.
    2.) Because we are tiny we can't be significant in existenceLif3r
    I will react to it by just quoting Jurassic park:
    The shorthand is the Butterfly Effect. A butterfly can flap its wings in Peking and in Central Park you get rain instead of sunshine.
  • Lif3r
    386
    basically any recorded definition of meaning fits the parameters of my expressions here.

    I enjoyed reading your writing, thank you.
  • christian2017
    1.4k


    Noah Harrari ("Sapiens") says we evolved to try to find and believe that life has meaning. The abstract concept that life has meaning even in intense suffering (some label this religion) allows very large groups of people (Ants and Apes) to coordinate their efforts to overcome the environment. This is according to Noah Harrari. He goes on to say we need a new fiction or a new religion for modern society that is different or slightly different from old religions. I disagree with him on alot of stuff but he has some interesting insights that are well articulated. He wrote "Sapiens" and "Homo Deus". His youtube videos are pretty good too.
  • JohnRB
    30
    The abstract concept that life has meaning even in intense suffering (some label this religion) allows very large groups of people (Ants and Apes) to coordinate their efforts to overcome the environment.christian2017

    Your example actually demonstrates that belief that life has meaning is superfluous, from an evolutionary perspective, to large groups coordinating their efforts to overcome the environment.

    Ants and apes evolved to coordinate their efforts to overcome the environment.
    Ants and apes don't have the belief that life has meaning.
  • christian2017
    1.4k
    Your example actually demonstrates that belief that life has meaning is superfluous, from an evolutionary perspective, to large groups coordinating their efforts to overcome the environment.

    Ants and apes evolved to coordinate their efforts to overcome the environment.
    JohnRB

    To atleast some degree you are right.

    Ants and apes don't have the belief that life has meaning.JohnRB

    Ants and Apes communicate to each other. lol. You're a silly goose. Please explain your position. That just seems so silly not to further explain.
  • JohnRB
    30


    No further explanation is required. Ants and apes don't have beliefs about the meaningfulness of their lives.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    Life is full of meaning. From my childhood atheists pushed idea of endless universe and how tiny Earth was compared to cosmos. While human life was just product of evolution and had no meaning. Well. These days we've got simulation hypothesis which finally can scientifically reverse this trend and make Life full of meaning again.IuriiVovchenko

    I have never met an atheist that says that life has no meaning, could you possible mention one or two so that I can see what they say.

    I know that life has a meaning, to live it the best you can and extract as much happiness as possible from the time you have alive.
    What I don't agree with is the idea that there is some sort of celestial, god given meaning to life that we are left in the dark about and have to try and find our way to paradise.
  • christian2017
    1.4k
    No further explanation is required. Ants and apes don't have beliefs about the meaningfulness of their lives.JohnRB

    Are you a 100% or 99% sure. I like to deal with over confident people. I'm not saying they do for sure but how would you prove that. Even people base truth and falsehood to some small measure on feeling. A bacteria bases its will to live or "purpose" on whether it feels like it ate enough. If a person suffers X amount they stop feeling like life has purpose. Do you see what I mean?
  • JohnRB
    30
    Here is one quick argument that ants and apes don’t have beliefs about the meaningfulness of their lives:

    1. Having beliefs about the meaning of life requires higher cognitive faculties with a sense of self and abstraction, evidenced in complex language skills (i.e., a grammar).
    2. Ants and apes don’t have these things.
    3. Ergo...

    Even people base truth and falsehood to some small measure on feeling. A bacteria bases its will to live or "purpose" on whether it feels like it ate enough. If a person suffers X amount they stop feeling like life has purpose. Do you see what I mean?christian2017

    No. Can you be clearer about your line of reasoning, as I was above?
  • JohnRB
    30


    “Such, in outline, even more purposeless, more void of meaning, [than Faustus’ cyclical creation myth] is the world which Science presents for our belief.” - Bertrand Russell, A Free Man’s Worship.
  • IvoryBlackBishop
    299
    One can subjectively feel that life is meaningless, however one cannot affirmatively say that "life is meaningless", as this is effectively saying that the "meaning of life" is to believe life is meaningless.

    If "life is meaningless", then a person consequentally doesn't have to "believe" it's meaningless to begin with; they can believe in whatever meaning they want to, or believe in any number of things, whether ghosts, goblins, flying spaghetti monsters, or any other thing, simply because they can, and because they want to.

    If some is saying they "can't", then they're lying and saying that the meaning of life is to "believe that it's meaningless", which is an oxymoron, as I've already pointed out.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    “Such, in outline, even more purposeless, more void of meaning, [than Faustus’ cyclical creation myth] is the world which Science presents for our belief.” - Bertrand Russell, A Free Man’s Worship.JohnRB

    I always liked this paragraph.

    The savage, like ourselves, feels the oppression of his impotence before the powers of Nature; but having in himself nothing that he respects more than Power, he is willing to prostrate himself before his gods, without inquiring whether they are worthy of his worship. Pathetic and very terrible is the long history of cruelty and torture, of degradation and human sacrifice, endured in the hope of placating the jealous gods: surely, the trembling believer thinks, when what is most precious has been freely given, their lust for blood must be appeased, and more will not be required. The religion of Moloch--as such creeds may be generically called--is in essence the cringing submission of the slave, who dare not, even in his heart, allow the thought that his master deserves no adulation. Since the independence of ideals is not yet acknowledged, Power may be freely worshipped, and receive an unlimited respect, despite its wanton infliction of pain.

    But some of his later works had a better view of things.
    But even here he does not say that life has no meaning. He bitches about the truth of man's life as seen from the scientific point of view, but no where does he say that it is not worth living or that it is without purpose.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    No further explanation is required. Ants and apes don't have beliefs about the meaningfulness of their lives.JohnRB

    They have no doubts about what their purpose is either.
  • Possibility
    2.8k
    Ants and apes evolved to coordinate their efforts to overcome the environment.
    Ants and apes don't have the belief that life has meaning.
    JohnRB

    The way I see it, ants don’t conceptualise existence as ‘organism’ across an awareness of time, but across an awareness of individuals. So they’re not looking for meaning in life as humans understand it, but in a present collective experience. Apes can find meaning in ‘organism’ either across time or across their community, but only humans are aware of a distinction between the two ways of conceptualising, and can look for meaning in ‘life’ as a complex correlation.
  • JohnRB
    30
    But even here he does not say that life has no meaning.Sir2u

    That’s actually exactly what he says. Unless you want to argue that Russell thinks we should reject what science presents to us.

    He bitches about the truth of man's life as seen from the scientific point of view,

    He’s not bitching. He thinks he’s making a bold observation about what we learn from science.

    but no where does he say that it is not worth living

    That wasn’t the issue. You said you had never met an atheist that says life has no meaning. I showed you one. I could show you other too (Rosenberg).

    or that it is without purpose.

    That’s exactly what he says.
  • christian2017
    1.4k
    Even people base truth and falsehood to some small measure on feeling. A bacteria bases its will to live or "purpose" on whether it feels like it ate enough. If a person suffers X amount they stop feeling like life has purpose. Do you see what I mean?
    — christian2017

    No. Can you be clearer about your line of reasoning, as I was above?
    JohnRB

    Perhaps you line of reasoning was stated clear, however it was just bad thinking. lol. your a funny guy.

    1. Having beliefs about the meaning of life requires higher cognitive faculties with a sense of self and abstraction, evidenced in complex language skills (i.e., a grammar).
    2. Ants and apes don’t have these things.
    3. Ergo...
    JohnRB

    "1. Having beliefs about the meaning of life requires higher cognitive faculties with a sense of self and abstraction, evidenced in complex language skills (i.e., a grammar)."

    You assume there is a connection but even young children have a sense of purpose. Having a sense of purpose usually stems from having some belief that in the future things will get better. You don't seem to have the ability to have abstract thought that has alot of spectrum. Something tells me we aren't going to convince each other of anything. Like I said earlier, if a person suffers X amount(opposite of happy) time they usually lose a sense that life has meaning. All people are to some degree motivated by emotion, the amount is what varies. Well you enjoy staying in that box my friend.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    "Life is meaningless" is something people like to say to one another on these two (and probably more) principles:

    1.) Because reality isn't fully consistent in tangibility, life has no foundation in existence or serves no purpose

    2.) Because we are tiny we can't be significant in existence

    And I disagree.

    Reality exists. I don't give a damn if it is all an illusion in the mind or if I am linked to a computer or if my reality is different than yours or from the reality of dimension pi zeta^3649. I wake up everyday and it's the same reality, and sure things around me change, and I change, but to the basis I know that I exist and I know that this is my reality because I experience it day in and day out.

    Sure it's interesting to think about, the idea that there is more to reality than meets the eye and that by further understanding and investigating this we can come to more conclusions, but it certainly isn't an excuse to ignore the ethics or fundamental principles of the reality that you or I are experiencing right now. Try not to kill each other and gravity. Simple concepts that most humans have evolved and inherited to comprehend as valuable for existence. Utilized to survive and to become increasingly more aware of existence. The basic guidelines of existence are explanatory from our predecessors of knowledge and from our further personal witness of social and physical phenomenon. We may not understand all of reality, but we comprehend the one we perceive enough to be able to recognize it. I think therefore I am. Lot of words to further explain essentially the same thing.

    And

    Just because biology of earth is a small fraction of a small portion of the universe does not mean we are insignificant. Life is significant because it exists. Everything is significant because it exists. Existence cannot exist without existing and so it must exist in order to retain it's significance of existence which is to... you guessed it... exist. That's the purpose of existence itself to it's very root.
    Lif3r

    As far as I can see meaning, whatever it's supposed to be, is a predicate and therefore must have a valid subject, this being life. As you already know, the relevant subject here viz. life is not eternal but finite - has a beginning and an end. When the subject vanishes, for instance with death or destruction, the predicate - meaning - becomes otiose.

    Even if life has meaning, this meaning simply floats away into nothingness with the cessation of life which as we all know is a certainty. Life is like a peg on the wall and meaning is like a cherished painting you wish to hang on it. When life ceases, the peg disappears and your painting falls. At best life has temporary meaning if that's ok with you.
  • deletedusercb
    1.7k
    Even if life has meaning, this meaning simply floats away into nothingness with the cessation of life which as we all know is a certaintyTheMadFool
    Then, regardless, you'll never experience meaninglessness. Because in all moments of experiences things will have meaning to you. Pain, loss of love, love, a new ______ [fill in the blank], unpleasant work, small victories, small set backs, getting a better quaility ice cream cone, really being listened to, being ignored.....

    even 'making a good point about meaninglessness in a philosophy forum'

    All experience filled for each of us with meaning.

    So, what you are talking about, in a future that does not exist, because we are in the present, this meaninglessness, you will not experience, nor will anyone who reads your post, and it does not exist now. Now is filled with meaning.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Now is filled with meaning.Coben

    Now is a temporal concept. What does it mean to say that the now is, as you say, filled with meaning? I thought we were discussing people and the desire for meaning to life and not a subdivison of time, the now?

    Also, what you say seems to go against the grain for death seems to be peoples' primary reason for the perceived meaninglessness of life. In other words it's not just the now people are worried about; it's actually eternity that people are clamoring for. This fits quite well with what I said about meaning being a property of life. So we may argue about whether life has meaning or not but nobody ever challenges the fact that nothing is more certain than death and taxes except those who believe in the afterlife and that to me is symptomatic of the underlying problem - finite beings obsessed with eternity.
  • Marchesk
    4.6k
    Life isn't meaningful either. It's a misapplication of the term. Life just is. You might find any given action or goal meaningful (purposeful is a better word), but the fact that you're alive has no inherent meaning.
  • deletedusercb
    1.7k
    Now is a temporal concept. What does it mean to say that the now is, as you say, filled with meaning? I thought we were discussing people and the desire for meaning to life and not a subdivison of time, the now?TheMadFool
    Well, I was responding the framing the issue in terms of time. Note the references to 'when you're dead' 'temporary' and so on in the post I was responding to. So, I responded in terms of time.

    To me at a very minimum to say that now is filled with meaning, is that I will experience things as meaningful, at the very least to me and others. it is part of my experience of life.
    Also, what you say seems to go against the grain for death seems to be peoples' primary reason for the perceived meaninglessness of life.TheMadFool
    Yes, people have that reaction. I was shifting focus, in that post, to the meaning that is present. One need not follow that line of logic, or 'logic', that even if death is the end of life then there really is no meaning. Because that is letting something imagined, that is not experienced and is not real yet, determine if there is meaning now. And, don't take this as if I think this is necessarily easy to do or I have not sympathy for that line of thought. But it is a line of thought and not necessarily a line one must argue or think.
    it's actually eternity that people are clamoring for.TheMadFool
    Sure, but in the name of clamouring for eternity, another thing I certainly empathize deeply with, they are saying that now has no meaning.
  • Qwex
    366
    Meaning has it's own purpose. It also has other meaning.

    To depict life as meaningless is a kind of mind nihilism.

    Is green doing green?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    One need not follow that line of logic, or 'logic', that even if death is the end of life then there really is no meaning.Coben

    I'm going to focus on the above statement to the exclusion of the rest because it bothers me. After death what has meaning? I know people seem to be under the impression, especially the religiously inclined, that there's an afterlife and you specifically alluded to it in the statements following the above remark. You know very well that an afterlife is essentially thrusting the begging bowl of desire in eternity's face.
  • deletedusercb
    1.7k
    You know very well that an afterlife is....TheMadFool
    Well, actually I don't. But this point is tangential to what I was saying. I was pointing out that this 'meaninglessness' is not present.

    As far as the afterlife, I get it. You think this is not possible or exceedingly unlikely. I think that viewpoint is a side effect of a lot of assumptions in what I suppose I could clump as physicalism. But since I have little interest in suddenly getting the onus to demonstrate to you there is an afterlife or might be, I'll leave it that. But you can't tell me what I know.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    Meaning is HAD for someone about something, no someones, no meaning.
  • Qwex
    366
    Some people will find meaning in the pleasure and knowledge of life.

    Do you have meaning as a part of the universe?

    What are we asking? If a being has any point to it's existence?

    Objects seem to be aiming for the pleasure and pain of consciousness and discovery in general, subjects are either with this or not, which tells a different story about the subject exists. It's meaning is strange, but we all have meaning, at least your meaning includes to be the sensory data in people's eyes.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    Such, in outline, but even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world which Science presents for our belief.

    He only points out what science says about the world.

    A strange mystery it is that Nature, omnipotent but blind, in the revolutions of her secular hurryings through the abysses of space, has brought forth at last a child, subject still to her power, but gifted with sight, with knowledge of good and evil, with the capacity of judging all the works of his unthinking Mother. In spite of Death, the mark and seal of the parental control, Man is yet free, during his brief years, to examine, to criticise, to know, and in imagination to create. To him alone, in the world with which he is acquainted, this freedom belongs; and in this lies his superiority to the resistless forces that control his outward life.

    But he also gives a purpose to life.
  • Teo
    6
    When you feel the breeze after a harsh time, you already know that existence is a matter. Hidden in the short moments of will in our lives, the feeling, or should I say Sense, when the cognitive from inside and the wind coming from the sea, combine is what I would call existence and its matter - sacred.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.