Still not answering the question then. I'm not going to ask again, I think it's now quite clear to all that you're just using your religion as post hoc justification for your own selfishness. Doesn't surprise me, religion is mostly post hoc justification for something. — Isaac

At the moment, we do not even have a definitive jurisprudential advisory on what exactly entails from the scriptures on this matter. Therefore, any conclusion is obviously premature at this point. You refuse to follow the procedure but at the same time you claim that the procedure fails.

Do you support universal healthcare?

Therefore, any conclusion is obviously premature at this point. — alcontali

So, if any conclusion is premature at this point, why have you opted to err on the side of doing as little as possible for your fellow man? Is that what you take to be the general gist of the Quran? "Do as little as possible for others, keep as much of your own wealth as you can get away with". How many clerics do you think would agree with that summary?

If it is premature at this point to conclude that "do good to" means "give 2.5% of your wealth to" and nothing more, then why on earth is that what you have concluded? I mean, I doubt a single person would presume, without cause, that that's what "do good to" means.

Do you support universal healthcare? — frank

In this context, I have looked up the following information:

Health as a Human Right in Islam. Responsibility of state. As he passed through Al-Jabiyah, Umar passed by a group of Christians suffering from leprosy. He ordered that they be given a portion of zakat and a food allowance. — Dr M.H. Al-Khayat

Islamic Perspective to Health Care Facility Design, paper presented at UIAWP Public Health, 17-27th July 2002, Berlin, German.

“You shall not attain virtue unless you spend (for the welfare of the poor) from the choicest part of your wealth” (Quran 3:92)

“ O You who believe! Spend (for the poor) from the worthiest part of (the wealth) you have earned and crop-yields, and do not give away from its unworthy parts-such that you yourselves will not take until you examine (its quality) minutely-and know that God is not in your need and all praise belongs to Him” (Quran 2:267)

Hospitals. In Mansuri Hospital, men and women were admitted in separate wards. All races, creed, and sex, age group, single or in groups, foreigners or local citizens, Muslim or non-Muslims, were accepted without any limit to their inpatient stay until they are fully recovered.

The Funding of the Establishment. Islamic hospitals were established in charitable principles, run by the government and financed by the wealthy members of the society as part of their obligatory duties from the Five Pillars of Islam - zakat, and were therefore free. These hospitals were financed from revenues of pious bequests called waqfs. Wealthy men, especially rulers, donate property as endowments (property could consist of shops, mills, caravans era is or even the entire village), whose revenue went toward building and maintaining the institution. The income from this endowment would pay for the maintenance and running costs of the hospital including stipends for patients upon discharge. Part of state budget also went toward the maintenance of hospital. — Norwina Mohd. Nawawi, International Islamic University Malaysia

Historically, the original scriptural interpretation was that the ruler had an obligation to organize hospitals for the poor and/or needy and to make use of the mandatory charity levy ("zakaat") for this purpose. I think that this interpretation is still sound. Health care for the rest of the population, however, should not be funded from the proceeds of mandatory charity ("zakaat").

So, if any conclusion is premature at this point, why have you opted to err on the side of doing as little as possible for your fellow man? Is that what you take to be the general gist of the Quran? "Do as little as possible for others, keep as much of your own wealth as you can get away with". How many clerics do you think would agree with that summary? — Isaac

Voluntary charity ("sadaqah") is not mandatory. Therefore, according to Islamic law, it is perfectly legitimate to limit one's charitable contribution to mandatory charity only ("zakaat").

It is not me who made the rules.

Do they still do it that way in Malaysia?

Voluntary charity ("sadaqah") is not mandatory. Therefore, according to Islamic law, it is perfectly legitimate to limit one's charitable contribution to mandatory charity only ("zakaat").

It is not me who made the rules. — alcontali

Did I once ask you what the rules say?

I asked you why you chose to err on the side of doing as little as you can get away with. I didn't ask you how little you can get away with. I asked you why you do not advise doing more, contrary to the advice of your religion.

(Let him who has 'ilm give sadaqah from his 'ilm. Let him who has wealth give sadaqah from his wealth.) [Ibn Sunni]

(Charity increases one’s life span. Sadaqah wipes out sins and protects one against awful death.) [Tabarani]

(Sadaqah wipes out arrogance.) [Tirmidhi]

(The rizq of a giver of sadaqah increases, and his du’a is accepted.) [Ibn Majah]

(Curse be upon him who prevents one from giving sadaqah.) [Isfahani]

(Sadaqah protects one from the torment in the grave. It takes one under protection on the Day of Resurrection.) [Bayhaqi]

(Avert your troubles with sadaqah.) [Daylami]

(Sadaqah wipes out sins just as water extinguishes fire.) [Tirmidhi]
(By Allah, giving sadaqah does not decrease wealth. Then give sadaqah.) [Imam-i Ahmad]

(Sadaqah increases wealth. Then give sadaqah.) [Ibn Abiddunya]

(Sadaqah averts 70 types of problems, the least of which is
leprosy and alphos.) [Hatib]

(Sadaqah cripples Shaitan.) [Daylami]

(Sadaqah given in secret extinguishes the wrath of Allah.) [Bayhaqi]

(Whoever gives sadaqah purely in pursuit of Allah’s pleasure, Allahu ta’ala will say to him on the Day of Resurrection, “O My slave, you pursued My pleasure, so I will not make you despicable, and I will make your body haram for Hell. Enter Paradise from any door you like.”) [Daylami]

(Give sadaqah even if it is little. Allah stops His favors on someone who conceals his money and does not give it.) [Muslim]

(Whoever wants abundant rizq, let him give sadaqah.) [Daylami]

(Make your rizq abundant by giving sadaqah.) [Bayhaqi]

(Sadaqah increases wealth.) [Ibn Adiy]

(Hurry to give sadaqah because trouble cannot pass before sadaqah.) [Tabarani, Bayhaqi]

(Give sadaqah because it is a means for your salvation from Hell.) [Tabarani]

(Give sadaqah even if it is a single date because it, though little, satisfies hunger and wipes out sins just as water extinguishes fire.) [Ibn Mubarak]

(Giving sadaqah in the beginning of a day averts calamities.) [Daylami]

(Sadaqah is more virtuous than observing a voluntary fast.) [Bayhaqi]

(If one gives sadaqah by intending its thawab for one’s Muslim parents, its thawab goes to them. There will be no decrease in one’s own thawab.) [Tabarani]

(A piece of bread given as sadaqah grows like the size of Mount Uhud in the sight of Allah.) [Tabarani]

Question: I have heard that we should give sadaqah every day. What should one do if one does not have any money?
ANSWER
Our Master the Messenger of Allah and the Blessed Companions had the following talk. Our Master the Messenger of Allah said:

- Every Muslim has to give sadaqah.
- O the Messenger of Allah, if someone cannot find anything to give, what should one do?
- One should work, earn, and give sadaqah.
- If one cannot find work?
- One should help someone in need in any way possible.
- If one cannot find anyone to help?
- One’s doing any beneficial deed is a sadaqah for one [for example, one’s saying “If I had money, I would give it in charity,” giving directions, removing something harmful from a pathway, remembering death, avoiding harming others, learning and teaching 'ilm]. (Bukhari, Muslim, Nasai)

I think there are better and worse ways to do so, and that a true philanthropist, as opposed to just doing the 'bare minimum' or the 'first step' is a rare thing, but that is just me.

I asked you why you chose to err on the side of doing as little as you can get away with. — Isaac

Because I can.

I asked you why you do not advise doing more, contrary to the advice of your religion. — Isaac

Because I do not really, actually advise on religion. I am just a user of religious theory. I do not seek to discover new theorems, because the ulema/scholars, specialized as they are in the subject matter, are much more efficient at that job than myself. So, I just tend to reuse their work. In fact, that is the case with almost every subject, except for the minute areas in which I specialize by myself. Furthermore, I have noticed over the years that I dislike teaching. I just do stuff by myself, and leave it to other people to teach on it.

- Every Muslim has to give sadaqah. — Isaac

Agreed.

However, since it was never specified how much exactly should be spent on sadaqah, just one cent also satisfies the obligation. Furthermore, there are certainly situations in which I sympathize with a possible recipient of charity, which makes it a lot easier to give. As far as I am concerned, charity works better in personal interactions.

What's more, as long as the zakaat budget is not exhausted, I will prioritize giving charity out of funds earmarked for zakaat. It is mostly a question of not carrying over negative outstanding zakaat balances to the next fiscal year.

As I have mentioned previously, we have not been burdened with endless obligations to the wider society. I am just an utmost humble servant of our Master, Lord of both worlds, Creator of this universe, and I really do not try to solve all the problems of this world.

Do they still do it that way in Malaysia? — frank

Well, how am I supposed to know? It sounds like another long investigation ...

You see, some countries have access to special revenue, such as royalties on mineral rights, or from oil and gas revenue sharing agreements. They may fund free services with that income, as a way to make the general population benefit from it. I was specifically thinking of countries in the Persian Gulf. Malaysia may also have special income to distribute, such as revenue from the Petronas oil company, and other such sources of income.

From there on, you may see that they fund some free services for the entire general population and not just for the poor and needy. As long as they do not fund free services for the general population from mandatory zakaat levies earmarked for only the poor and needy, I think that this could possibly work too. That kind of things need to be investigated on a case-by-case basis.

Much better to give because you care, not because you are playing a game quid pro quo. — Wheatley

There's a third option, which is that you give out of a feeling of obligation because it's your duty. I'd submit that is the highest option and the one you summarily reject.

There's a third option, which is that you give out of a feeling of obligation because it's your duty. I'd submit that is the highest option and the one you summarily reject. — Hanover

The trouble is, Hanover, that there’s nothing for them in that. They want immediate satisfaction, not a better world down the line. Maybe they don’t even know what they want. They reject the past and everything about it forgetting how they got here.

Voluntary charity ("sadaqah") is not mandatory. Therefore, according to Islamic law, it is perfectly legitimate to limit one's charitable contribution to mandatory charity only ("zakaat").

It is not me who made the rules. — alcontali

Tzedakah is the Hebrew word for charity, and it is mandatory, and it generally agile should be 10% of your income under the tithe rules. That's the Jewish rule.

The trouble is, Hanover, that there’s nothing for them in that. They want immediate satisfaction, not a better world down the line. Maybe they don’t even know what they want. They reject the past and everything about it forgetting how they got here. — Brett

Possibly, or just rationalizations for bad behavior.

Tzedakah is the Hebrew word for charity, and it is mandatory, and it generally agile should be 10% of your income under the tithe rules. That's the Jewish rule. — Hanover

The Torah, i.e. the source of written Jewish law, is considered a holy scripture in Islam, on the same basis as the Injil (Gospel) and the Zabur (Psalms). Even though the specific details of his view may not be generally shared by other Muslims, I believe what Hans Joachim Schoeps writes about the origins of many of the members of the first Islamic congregation:

Hans Joachim Schoeps observes that the Christianity Muhammad was likely to have encountered on the Arabian peninsula "was not the state religion of Byzantium but a schismatic Christianity characterized by Ebionite and Monophysite views."[115] Thus we have a paradox of world-historical proportions, viz., the fact that Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was preserved in Islam and thereby extended some of its basic ideas even to our own day. According to Islamic doctrine, the Ebionite combination of Moses and Jesus found its fulfillment in Muhammad.[116] — Wikipedia on the original 'congregation of the poor'

In this view, the kernel of the Islamic congregation trace their origins back to the congregation of Moses, over the congregation of Jesus, i.e. the 'congregation of the poor', through his successor (and brother) in Jerusalem, James the Just.

In Islam, the mandatory zakaat levy is also 10% on income from agricultural produce. On urban income, the calculation rule is different, and instead, based on wealth accumulation. It is the same principle but a different calculation rule.

I am just an utmost humble servant of our Master, Lord of both worlds — alcontali

I asked you why you chose to err on the side of doing as little as you can get away with. — Isaac


Because I can. — alcontali

So doing as little as you can possibly get away with is your definition of an utmost humble servant?

So doing as little as you can possibly get away with is your definition of an utmost humble servant? — Isaac

Yes, since arrogance is the utmost flawed belief in your unlimited capacity to do more.

“[Allah] said, “Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.” — Quran 7:13

My obligation to society and humanity is to facilitate their existence insofar as a purpose of existence is to exist and this resides within your purpose as well.

Because this resides in your purpose I respect your right to exist and I choose to see your existence forward to the best of my ability because I wish for all of existence to thrive insofar as it is capable of cohabitation.

You aren't burdened with a task. You are gifted with a right. I respect this right within myself and so I respect it within you.

Much better to give because you care, not because you are playing a game quid pro quo.
— Wheatley

There's a third option, which is that you give out of a feeling of obligation because it's your duty. I'd submit that is the highest option and the one you summarily reject. — Hanover

I count these option as very similar...in another thread I recently suggested that all obligations only exist "because I care". If I didn't care about "duty" then I would have no obligation to it? Similarly, if I don't care about morality or the law, then I have no obligation toward them (or if my opinions on law/morality are different then we would have very different obligations)...aren't all MY obligations just MY opinion of what I owe to other people/things/concepts?

Wouldn't an even "higher" option be to do what is right (what we think is right) even though you are not "obligated"?

Wouldn't an even "higher" option be to do what is right (what we think is right) even though you are not "obligated"? — ZhouBoTong

Islamic law is a "self-obligation", i.e. self-discipline. Nobody in particular told me to start keeping its rules. If I break these rules, I do not expect anybody to show up at my house to blame and shame me. Still, self-discipline gives a lot of satisfaction. It mostly makes you feel better, and in that way, contributes to your happiness. The idea of "fitrah" is that we are naturally predisposed to enjoy keeping Islamic law. Of course, you can only figure that out by trying ...

Islamic law is a "self-obligation", i.e. self-discipline. Nobody in particular told me to start keeping its rules. If I break these rules, I do not expect anybody to show up at my house to blame and shame me. Still, self-discipline gives a lot of satisfaction. It mostly makes you feel better, and in that way, contributes to your happiness. The idea of "fitrah" is that we are naturally predisposed to enjoy keeping Islamic law. Of course, you can only figure that out by trying ... — alcontali

Seems we are on a similar track :smile:. However, I struggle to accept that most Muslims (or Christians) can ignore the everlasting punishments and/or rewards on offer. It sounds like you are trying to "do good for the sake of good", but I am not sold that most religious people (or secular folk for that matter) operate at that level.