Thank you for your images, art works. They are very inspiring and intriguing.
I would say from the moment they became artistically interesting to you, you became an artist, however you were performing the same creative actions before as you were after you saw them as art. So you were creating art right from the beginning, while not recognising it as art.

As for defining what art is, this cannot easily be pinned down, or should it be pinned down, it is a cultural phenomena. We could go to great lengths to define it and yet that would be a great deal of talking and I doubt it would take us anywhere in particular.

What is more important if one is an artist is the art itself and the enjoyment of creating it and living with it. Also others sharing in that experience.

I agree with your thoughts about Consciousness, and I like your concept of the King but I would extend the definition of consciousness beyond the sensibilities of mind. For example, as Colosseum said, animals are artists, but they don't have conscious minds like humans. Fish, clear a patch of gravel, for a female to like it, or the bower bird creating a beautiful bower for his female, who has a critical eye.

I think I've gotten to the point where I don't think art can be defined or fully described philosophically.

I agree with this sentiment.

I broadly agree with you, you have made so many comments I can't get into them all now.

art is supposed to transcend culture - transcend the time and place in which it was created, and speak to the ages. Therefore knowledge of the culture in which it was created should not be essential to recognising it as a work of art (if it was, then it would not be speaking to the ages, and thus would not be art). — Bartricks

I don’t know who said this, nor do I agree.

Art is a cultural artefact, but so is a car or mobile phone. So art is an artefact of a different nature.

There’s an obvious difference between a car and a Picasso. Cars are mass produced for a start, they’re also designed and built on a budget, they’re not the work on one individual and they’re also designed not to be iconoclastic but to calm and satisfy materialist desires of humans, not to mention that they’re entirely functional. Art as an artefact is none of these.

A modern painting or carving may create the most primitive of emotions and, removed from the earth by an archeologist, display the same response as a carving 1000 years old does. But that’s not likely anymore than a non-Christian can be affected by a silver crucifix, there has to be a cultural connection.

The cultural connection of art seems to run deeper and maybe more primitively than a car or phone. The most relevant artists occupy a very small place at the topic an isosceles triangle. Everything else is imitation or reconfiguration, and there’s a lot of it about. In trying to define art I don’t see any point in referring to that except to show what it isn’t. Can an artist channel a cultural period? Maybe, if they have what it takes: skill, perception, imagination, courage, audacity, an open connection to their unconscious mind.

It’s the process that counts for the artist. At the end a work of art may as well be a corpse, a stuffed reference to something that happened but has already gone. And the artwork is certainly not the experience of the artist. Art is an odd artefact because from the moment it’s made it’s over. Some art, like dance, comes and goes before your very eyes.

So there are two moments in the life of art; the making of it and the consumption of it. Outside of the artist all art is consumption, which in the end is consuming culture. That seems a bit shallow, but in the end it’s consumption of something, or maybe consumption’s not the right word, and nor does it contribute to a definition of art, because it would still have happened, even without an audience. So in some ways art’s a corpse.

Its brave of you to attempt to define art as you have, I think there is some truth in what you say, but there are numerous counter arguments and I don't think one can restrict art to the contents of critical thinking, or the domain of self consciousness alone.

There is an interesting test for what is art, coined by Grayson Perry, put your art work in a skip and if it has gone by the next day, it is good art, or art, if it stays for a long time, it is poor art, or isn't art at all.

For example, as Colosseum said, animals are artists, — Punshhh

Why are they artists?

I agree with your definition over all the others, it is a cultural phenomenon and plays the role of a mirror. For example, the Punk movement was a well developed social force before the Sex Pistols were formed, they were just the latest development in the trend.

I agree with your thoughts about Consciousness, but I would extend the definition of consciousness beyond the sensibilities of mind. For example, as Colosseum said, animals are artists, but they don't have conscious minds like humans. Fish, clear a patch of gravel, for a female to like it, or the bower bird creating a beautiful bower for his female, who has a critical eye. — Punshhh

There is more evidence every day about consciousness in animals and plants even!
But I'm trying to restrict this to Human Art.

But I'm trying to restrict this to Human Art. — Pop

There is no other art.

I believe art has already been defined as: an expression of human consciousness, and art work as information about the artists consciousness, and subconsciousness

This definition can be invalidated by producing one artwork that dose not fit the definition.

Nobody has done this yet.

an expression of human consciousness, and art work as information about the artists consciousness, and subconsciousness — Pop

Then obviously art is human and only humans produce art.

Why are they artists?

They are artists because they are performing all the processes that human artists and viewers do, short of intellectual introspection and comment, oh and no money changes hand.

Take the bower bird, the male has inherited a highly creative streak, including critical faculties of the materials he uses and how they work together. The female has inherited acute critical faculties about the creative skills and execution of the male. Also she has her own particular style and preferences, along with the male. She knows what constitutes good art and poor art.

Brett There are birds that create nests and decorate them. There seems to be consciousness beyond humanity. AI will develop a consciousness.

an expression of human consciousness, and art work as information about the artists consciousness, and subconsciousness — Pop

That would also include all of humanity. So every person is an artist?

Brett --- If they want to be.

There are birds that create nests and decorate them. — Pop

But why is that art? And decorate them? How.

So every person is an artist?

Yes, but some artists are better than others.

Brett --- If they want to be. — Pop

So how does that help in defining art?

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↪Brett [quote. So every person is an artist? — Punshhh

Yes, but some artists are better than others.[/quote]

Once again that doesn’t help in defining art.

I'm not attempting to define art, but rather identify it.

an expression of human consciousness, and art work as information about the artists consciousness, and subconsciousness

The definition works for animals also, and it will be fascinating to see what AI produces. Not much so far, but in ten twenty years

I'm not attempting to define art, but rather identify it. — Punshhh

That seems to require definition first to me.

The definition works for animals also — Pop

How do you even know what the sub consciousness of a bird is like? That’s a big call.

Edit: let alone an AI.

Here is a female bower bird viewing the art. She is assessing if the male is a good artist, which will depend on her own artistic preferences. This has all been documented and studied.

Explain where the art is and who created it.

Here is the artist working on his next piece.

an expression of human consciousness, and art work as information about the artists consciousness, and subconsciousness — Pop

Can you be sure that isn’t behind the design and construction of a car?

Here is the artist working on his next piece. — Punshhh

Why is the bird an artist?

Why is the bird an artist?

Because he is using his creative streak to create a refined work for a viewer to critically assess.