Every time an employer hires a person because they are black. I'm a current participant in the job market. — Harry Hindu

Hahhaha. Imagine how black people feel every time a white person is hired.

Was the white guy hired because he was white?

I'm rereading When Colorblindness Isn't The Answer by Anthony B. Pinn at the moment, which takes a decidely different approach to the racial colorblindness issue than I've taken in the discussion so far. I drop this book here during a lull in case anyone - no need to name names - needing to read it does so. — 180 Proof

Here is a fairly detailed review with excerpts so people don't necessarily need to read it to get the gist:
https://thehumanist.com/magazine/july-august-2017/arts_entertainment/colorblindness-isnt-answer-humanism-challenge-race

I don't have time to respond now, but will later.

Was the white guy hired because he was white? — Pfhorrest

It would be tough to prove, but at some point statistical likelihood comes into play.

I'm rereading When Colorblindness Isn't The Answer by Anthony B. Pinn at the moment, which takes a decidely different approach to the racial colorblindness issue than I've taken in the discussion so far. I drop this book here during a lull in case anyone - no need to name names - needing to read it does so. — 180 Proof

"Why hasn’t humanism proven a more compelling alternative to theism for African Americans, American Indians, Latino/as, and so on? And, what might humanism do—on the level of community formation and the ritualizing of mundane life—to make it more appealing and more competitive with theistic organizations?" — Anthony Pinn

Humanism isn't as appealing to people (regardless of race) and theology is precisely because it make you feel more special than you really are. Humanism brings us all back to the same equal level.

Why would minorities embrace a white, European concept such as Christianity if they thought that they were being oppressed by white systems and concepts?

Hahhaha. Imagine how black people feel every time a white person is hired. — ZhouBoTong

Are you saying that all black people don't want any whites to ever be hired? Isn't that racist to put all black people into the same box, as if they all think the same because they have the same skin color?

And this:

Police may be more prone to shooting black men and boys, compared to whites of the same, because of the perceived degree of threat that police officers have of black men and boys, and not because the officers are racist. It would be responsible for police officers to be aware of their biases and deal with them as best they can. — praxis

Isn't this saying that we shouldn't hold black men and boys to the same ethical standard that we are trying to hold police too? We don't hold sharks and lions to the same ethical standard as human beings either, so does this imply that blacks aren't equally human? Statements like this and the previous one would offend me if I was a black man (I'm actually offended as a human being that other human beings talk like this). Is it a "human thing" or a "white thing" to have prejudices and biases and should we have equal expectations of all humans, regardless of race, when it comes to restraining your biases and prejudices?

Are you saying that all black people don't want any whites to ever be hired? Isn't that racist to put all black people into the same box, as if they all think the same because they have the same skin color? — Harry Hindu

Nope. Just saying that FAR more black people have been NOT HIRED because they are black for the last 50 years than those who were hired to fill diversity quotas (and obviously it was WAY worse before the civil rights movement). This does not seem all that contestable to me, but if you require absolute proof, I can't do that...but I also cannot prove that the sun will rise tomorrow despite having a lot of information suggesting that it will.

Are you saying that all black people don't want any whites to ever be hired? — Harry Hindu

Not sure where that comes from? Are you saying that all whites don't ever want a black person to be hired?

You may not have noticed, but if you point out the reality of racism in any form, @Harry Hindu will find a way to accuse you of racism. It's his one game here and he never ever gets tired of it.

Nope. Just saying that FAR more black people have been NOT HIRED because they are black for the last 50 years than those who were hired to fill diversity quotas (and obviously it was WAY worse before the civil rights movement). — ZhouBoTong

As Michelle Alexander wrote in The New Jim Crow, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I'd also add that probably far more black folks have been murdered by paranoid policemen and women (who took over the job after the KKK's glory days waned) than have been hired due to EEOP. The usa's foundational fictions deny the supreme importance of genocide and slavery in forging this great democracy, but you don't have to look very hard to see that all social institutions are permeated with white supremacy. You just have to come out of denial.

I teach at an HBCU; I hear about the subtle and not so subtle operations of white supremacy every day, and I see their effects on my students. This is no democracy; there is no equality.

Police may be more prone to shooting black men and boys, compared to whites of the same, because of the perceived degree of threat that police officers have of black men and boys, and not because the officers are racist. It would be responsible for police officers to be aware of their biases and deal with them as best they can.
— praxis

Statements like this and the previous one would offend me if I was a black man (I'm actually offended as a human being that other human beings talk like this). — Harry Hindu

I'm talking about putting effort into being aware of our subconscious biases and dealing with them responsibly.

Any subconscious biases that black and brown people have against the police and judicial system may be wellfounded. In The New Jim Crow, Michelle Alexander argues that the mass incarceration of black and brown people in the United States that started with the 'war on drug' has stripped away their civil rights to a point comparable to the era of Jim Crow ("the more things change, the more they stay the same").

Mass incarceration due to the "war on drugs."


Incarceration rate by race:


Note that many studies show that there's no substantial difference in the rate that white people consume and sell drugs compared to that of black and brown people.

Is the American judicial system colorblind?

What a coincidence. I just posted about Michelle Alexander's book.

Yeah, I just copied and pasted a line from your post to mine.

I teach at an HBCU and I significant number of students whose parent has been incarcerated. One girl, who's been missing for a month, showed up today and told me all about her bipolar and schizophrenic father (a veteran) who was in jail for 15 years and spent a year in solitary. It's a systematic plan to continue to destroy the black family that's been going on since slavery. Another of my students did a presentation in class on the impact of public housing on the black family, and the insistence by the govt that women accepting govt aid could NOT have a man living in their apartment. It's really all psychopathic, like the prez and all his cronies, but psychopaths will never call each other out.

Is the American judicial system colorblind?

I think it’s safe to say that any racially-motivated injustice, whether institutional or not, is by definition not color-blind. If it was color-blind, the race of the accused would not matter and other reasons would account for those disparities.

You may not have noticed but if you point out the reality of racism in any form, Harry Hindu will find a way to accuse you of racism. It's his one game here and he never ever gets tired of it. — Baden

haha, I am slowly learning. But ego gets in the way. If they just heard one more perspective maybe it would change their mind...and of course I have that perfect perspective ready to go :roll:

Sometimes I read a whole bunch of careful, intelligent, evidenced arguments being denied (or flipped as you mentioned), and think maybe if I phrase this in a simpler (dumber) way it will work. Like I said, I am learning slowly (I was actually trying to do his flip thing back to him, but I should know you can't out flip The Flipper).

The usa's foundational fictions deny the supreme importance of genocide and slavery in forging this great democracy, — uncanni

I was about to say "the good new is", but that seems wholly inappropriate, how about "a reason for some hope" - I received my high school history teaching credentials in 2013; many teachers are far more liberal, and are teaching U.S. history in a way that is at least trying to be true to the facts rather than CREATING a narrative. Ironically, this gets called "revisionist history" by those who think the founding fathers are deities, slavery was a minor issue (ie Texas textbooks calling slaves "workers"), america is the best country that has ever existed, and America is a model that is the only reason freedom and democracy exist anywhere in the world :roll:

I get this more accurate instruction of history does very little to help people who are currently suffering, but it may give us reason to think people will be more supportive of their plight in the future. I guess that is easy to say as someone who does not have to suffer from these same problems.

social institutions are permeated with white supremacy. You just have to come out of denial. — uncanni

What always shocks me is that we know for sure that Jim Crow laws were only made illegal in the 1960s. So until then, white supremacy was basically a government policy...why do people think there are no remaining aspects of white supremacy in government, our legal system, people's behavior's (even people who are not white supremacists will have old habits), etc?

I hear about the subtle and not so subtle operations of white supremacy every day, and I see their effects on my students. This is no democracy; there is no equality. — uncanni

How does the future look from your perspective? Am I overly optimistic in my hopes that things will be improving as more liberal (accurate?) understandings of history become the norm in school classrooms? Is it just a privilege to have the time to worry about the distant future?

How does the future look from your perspective? Am I overly optimistic in my hopes that things will be improving as more liberal (accurate?) understandings of history become the norm in school classrooms? Is it just a privilege to have the time to worry about the distant future? — ZhouBoTong

Dear fellow teacher: I'm glad to hear about the high school textbooks, and I believe that things are improving for black Americans, little by little. The wheels of history grind slowly

I'm in SC, one of the most backasswards southern states; I'd say that around half of my students are solid middle class, and the other half is solid underclass. I think about the differences between these two groups every day, because it's a catch-22 to expect middle class values, understanding and behavior from the latter group. While it's gratifying to see many of these millenials with "post-racial" mentalities--by which I mean that they know that they don't always have to think in racial terms or mistrust every single white person they meet--, students from the underclass tend to come from so much familial trauma, all the pernicious effects of either inner city or rural southern poverty and lousy k-12 education, that sometimes I'm afraid that I can't help them at all: their defenses and modes of behavior are too set. One does the best one can.

As for the distant future, I'm so cynical about the usa and its entire mythology of who it is: the nation's defenses are also too deeply set in place for it to come out of denial. What I call the Obama backlash, which I believe is a huge part of what put trump in office, was so strong, so many people who seethed with rage for 8 years at having a black man in the white house, runs so deep and so strong in provincial white america. I l taught for 18 years in TX--the scariest and most provincial place I've ever lived. The bible belt is a horrifying place--pathologically ignorant and irrational.

You may not have noticed, but if you point out the reality of racism in any form, Harry Hindu will find a way to accuse you of racism. It's his one game here and he never ever gets tired of it. — Baden

Fdrake made a similar argument. I asked him to define "prejudice" and never answered the question. So, I ask you: define "racism/prejudice/bias". If it walks, talks and acts like a duck, it's a duck.

And I've been asking for awhile now for people to point out the racists in our society, when all along they are right here in this thread!

I'm talking about putting effort into being aware of our subconscious biases and dealing with them responsibly.

Any subconscious biases that black and brown people have against the police and judicial system may be wellfounded. In The New Jim Crow, Michelle Alexander argues that the mass incarceration of black and brown people in the United States that started with the 'war on drug' has stripped away their civil rights to a point comparable to the era of Jim Crow ("the more things change, the more they stay the same").

Mass incarceration due to the "war on drugs."

Note that many studies show that there's no substantial difference in the rate that white people consume and sell drugs compared to that of black and brown people.

Is the American judicial system colorblind? — praxis

As a Libertarian, I'm against any war, or laws on drugs.

The second chart doesn't show why blacks are being arrested. Why don't you look at the correlation between how you were raised and whether you end up in prison because you have a higher change of joining gangs or other crimes because of your socio-economic situation? There is no such thing as "white privilege". There is such a thing as "loving two-parent privilege". Cops could have a wellfounded reason to think about blacks in a certain way. I'm saying that they both should be aware of any biases they should have, and that it isn't up to just one side to check their biases.

What you are attempting to show is that it's not just the cop who is racist, but the prosecuting and defending attorney, the judge and any witnesses, who could go on TV and declare racism is why the black man is in jail for that particular case and the media would be all over it. It's a ridiculous claim based on the current environment in the U.S. where any claim of racism is put front and center by the media.

You don't even need any proof. You can just scream "Racism!" and you'll have cameras and microphones in front of your face. That is the current environment in the U.S. Do you disagree with this?

Just as we seem to notice that white kids get gunned down at schools and we clamor for gun control, we ignore all the deaths of blacks on the inner city streets by gang and drug violence with handguns, which far exceed the number of white deaths in schools by AR-15s. It seems racist to me to focus on the banning of AR-15s when more than half of people killed in violent hand-gun confrontations are black.

But then what about the astounding suicide rate of white males compared to other groups? Define "privilege".

Nope. Just saying that FAR more black people have been NOT HIRED because they are black for the last 50 years than those who were hired to fill diversity quotas (and obviously it was WAY worse before the civil rights movement). This does not seem all that contestable to me, but if you require absolute proof, I can't do that...but I also cannot prove that the sun will rise tomorrow despite having a lot of information suggesting that it will. — ZhouBoTong

uh, so a claim without any proof isn't contestable? MMMMkaaaaaaay..................
Unicorns are racist because there are mostly white unicorns.

... define "racism/prejudice/bias". — Harry Hindu

Again, spitting in the fan ... :confused:

Racism. This is prejudice instituted (i.e. made normative) and executed by Business Practices in tandem with State (and/or Church) Policies.

Prejudice. This is socialized (or experientially conditioned) self-serving bias against members of (designated or not - ethnic/color, class, gender/sexuality, sectarian, etc) Out-Groups.

Bias. This is involuntary (though not intractably incorrigible) reflex of perception/cognition-blindness to complexity or to one's own perplexity.

These are interrelated, nested, concepts lost on too many like you, Hindu, apparently due to (cognitive? or ideological?) bias. :chin:

What do you call it when someone hates someone based only on the colour of skin/race?

Racism. This is prejudice instituted (i.e. made normative) and executed by Business Practices in tandem with State (and/or Church) Policies. — 180 Proof

You keep saying this and I keep responding with requests for you to point to the Business or business practice and State, Church (remember when I asked you why blacks embrace a white, European concept like Christianity if white systems and concepts are racist, and you didn't respond?), and policies that are racist, and you don't respond.

We have equal treatment laws in the books.

There are many minorities in positions of power that can change my life for the worse if they wanted.

Minorities have the power to call someone racist without any proof and the media comes running.

Many businesses, states and churches are run by minorities, or have minorities at the top of the hierarchy of these institutions.

So for the umpteenth time, where is the systematic, institutionalized racism?

Prejudice. This is socialized (or experientially conditioned) self-serving bias against members of (designated or not - ethnic/color, class, gender/sexuality, sectarian, etc) out-groups. — 180 Proof

What is the difference between something that is socialized and something that is instituted? You still haven't made a clear distinction between what is prejudice and what is racist.

Bias. This is involuntary (though not intractably incorrigible) reflex of perception/cognition-blindness to complexity or to one's own perplexity. — 180 Proof

An involuntary blindness to complexity? How do you expect to change the ideas of someone who has involuntary blindness? How do you expect to change their minds? I thought the first two definitions were whack, but this one takes the cake. This definition seems to say that no one could ever be aware of and therefore mitigate their biases.

There must be a purpose for me to notice skin color. What would it be for? In what context?


With the definitions you provided, I have shown that minorities, and many people in this thread who argue from the same side as you, fall into those definitions, and that we should hold them equally responsible for their biases, prejudice and racism.

What is the racial composition of the mods that run this forum? Is this forum run by mostly whites? Is this forum racist? It seems that your definitions make the case that this forum is racist. If it's not modded by mostly whites, the what does that say about whites being the only ones in power?

Stop being so incurious and intellectually lazy and google what you've asked me. Or make do with what I've already written on this thread. Or do neither. I'm done feeding trolls here.

How do you expect to change the ideas of someone who has involuntary blindness? How do you expect to change their minds? I thought the first two definitions were whack, but this one takes the cake. This definition seems to say that no one could ever be aware of and therefore mitigate their biases. — Harry Hindu

Involuntary doesn't mean imperceptible, and the definition explicitly stated that biases are "not intractably incorrigible."

We can influence our negative biases by providing positive experiences that counteract them, simply. This can be done deliberately or unintentionally to ourselves and others. Of course, it can also occur by chance. For an example in popular culture, I saw a movie last night that appeared to be trying to counteract the negative image that the Trump administration is painting of South American immigrants. In the new Terminator movie [spoiler altert], it's an illegal border crossing Mexican woman who turns out to be the savior of humanity. If Trump made the movie, the hero would be a blond-haired white dude and all the killer robots would be Mexican. See how that works?

Involuntary doesn't mean imperceptible, and the definition explicitly stated that biases are "not intractably incorrigible."

We can influence our negative biases by providing positive experiences that counteract them, simply. This can be done deliberately or unintentionally to ourselves and others. Of course, it can also occur by chance. For an example in popular culture, I saw a movie last night that appeared to be trying to counteract the negative image that the Trump administration is painting of South American immigrants. In the new Terminator movie [spoiler altert], it's an illegal border crossing Mexican woman who turns out to be the savior of humanity. If Trump made the movie, the hero would be a blond-haired white dude and all the killer robots would be Mexican. See how that works?

Perhaps it was the writer’s negative biases that led him/her to kill the previous savior of humanity, a white dude, and replace him with a female illegal immigrant.

The wheels of history grind slowly — uncanni

indeed. I guess as long as things are moving in the right direction there is reason to think positively (I don't know if the Trump movement is society moving backwards or a highlighting of the problem that may actually speed up the improvements we want? - maybe both?)

I'm in SC, one of the most backasswards southern states; — uncanni

Well the first state to secede probably hung on to that "Lost Cause" garbage longer than most (I say that like they are done believing such nonsense, ugh).

because it's a catch-22 to expect middle class values, understanding and behavior from the latter group. — uncanni

Your understanding of sociology seems to be at a higher level than my own, but I agree that projection and assumption of values as "right", leads to entire groups of people being labelled "wrong" for simply existing.

students from the underclass tend to come from so much familial trauma, all the pernicious effects of either inner city or rural southern poverty and lousy k-12 education, that sometimes I'm afraid that I can't help them at all: their defenses and modes of behavior are too set. — uncanni

:yikes: My life has been too easy, so I can only feel bad...there is almost no way I can relate.

One does the best one can. — uncanni

Well thanks for doing it. I am working in a relatively affluent area, so, while I can't afford rent, my job is fairly easy as I am not exposed to major systemic problems (I suppose the top level education received in affluent areas IS part of the systemic problem as funding stays local).

What I call the Obama backlash — uncanni

Indeed, if Trump has emboldened the racists in public, the election of Obama got them grumbling, people were just more careful to not mention race specifically...but every time I heard "Obama is the worst president in US history", it simply reeked of racism as there were no other factors that could possibly justify such an assertion (and unfortunately, I heard that whopper quite a bit).

I l taught for 18 years in TX--the scariest and most provincial place I've ever lived. — uncanni

Yeah, I don't remember exactly, but it was recent, sometime in the last 5 years or so, that Texas was sued over textbooks calling slaves "workers". Very worrisome when considering that textbook companies prioritize their content for Texas as the state school board buys ALL books for every public school in the state.

Thanks for the added perspective.

uh, so a claim without any proof isn't contestable? MMMMkaaaaaaay.................. — Harry Hindu

Why would someone want/need proof that the sun will rise tomorrow? There is plenty of evidence, just zero proof.

The point that you apparently missed is that people deliberately attempt to bias (negatively and positively) others. As someone who’s fallen under Trump’s spell, you should know this well, if only experientially.

My life has been too easy, so I can only feel bad...there is almost no way I can relate. — ZhouBoTong

You shouldn't feel bad; we all need to teach our students to subvert the dominant paradigm!!! ;-}