Former Theists, how do you avoid nihilism??

Maybe they stay theists?

One must one ask what exactly we are resisting. The problem with stoic account is it assumes an adversary. In the context of nihlism, it needs us to already be nihlists to mean anything.

The one who is not a nihlist has no such adversary to overcome. For them, there is no pain of nihilism to resist and endure. Those with more than a minimum of.moral fibre are already swimming.

No, it's more than that: they don't even need to think about swimming. It doesn't matter, to them, they can breathe water. Oceans are no adversary for them.

To live without anxiety or dread is, seems to me, to no longer be capable of falling in love or of experiencing spiritual/intellectual revolutions. — jellyfish

Not so. Stoicism teaches us to avoid extremes of emotion, not to completely shut-off normal human feelings. Of course, Stoic love might seem like indifference to a drama-queen Romantic. Likewise, to be aware & concerned about Death & Disaster is necessary for the continuation of life. But, anxiety and dread and self-flagellation are counterproductive, and useless, and as Mr. Spock would say "illogical" . :smile:

Of course, Stoic love might seem like indifference to a drama-queen Romantic. Likewise, to be aware & concerned about Death & Disaster is necessary for the continuation of life. But, anxiety and dread and self-flagellation are counterproductive, and useless, and as Mr. Spock would say "illogical" . — Gnomon

Well I do like Mr. Spock! The 'drama queen' line is funny, but note the subtle casting of a female for that role. And it's something that a long married person might say. Anxiety is also thrill. Many of us like horror movies. So the idea that anxiety is simply bad seems all wrong to me.

Put jelly on your shoulder
Let's do what you fear most
That from which you recoil
But still makes your eyes moist
Put jelly, baby, on your shoulder
Lies down, now baby, on the carpet
...
Well some kinds of love
They're mistaken for vision
...
And for me to miss one
Would seem to be groundless
— Lou Reed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh-GNnCwHj4

The 'drama queen' line is funny, but note the subtle casting of a female for that role. — jellyfish

Again, with the political correctness! Sorry, but "Drama King" just wouldn't convey the same imagery. :grin:

I was looking for a modifier that would focus on an extreme version of the broad Romantic worldview. It wasn't intended to be anti-feminist, but merely anti-extremist. The key to the Stoic worldview is Aristotle's "moderation in all things". Or, as Lou Reed says : "some kinds of love, they're mistaken for vision". Romantic "love will conquer all" is a nice sentiment, but not very realistic. That's why most love songs are tinged with the sadness of love-gone-wrong. Stoics are advised to avoid being "blinded by love".

One must one ask what exactly we are resisting. The problem with stoic account is it assumes an adversary. In the context of nihlism, it needs us to already be nihlists to mean anything. — TheWillowOfDarkness

The "adversary" of Stoicism is extremism, whether of proud Optimism or of abject Cynicism. There is no need to slog in the slough of meaninglessness, or to climb to the dangerous pinnacle of identifying with God. It merely requires a recognition that such absolutes are no solution for the ups & downs of life. Better to face into the oncoming waves than to turn away and be swamped. :cool:

What alternatives are available that we've been deprived of?
— Ciceronianus the White

This is actually part of what's sometimes made the existential dread I've been suffering from this past year so horrible. — Pfhorrest

? — Ciceronianus the White

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the fact that there are no alternatives is a part of the existential dread that you suffer.

I'm uncertain how to address that beyond suggesting that it is unreasonable to feel dread regarding or be disturbed by the fact that it isn't possible to have something we want to have, or to be something we cannot be, or for the universe to be something it is not.

But I may misunderstand you.

Nah you understood right, and I know it's unreasonable, but feeling existential dread in the first place is unreasonable, and just knowing that doesn't make it stop.

On a related note, this is a note a wrote to myself last night, that I'll elaborate upon somewhere in the last chapter of my book later:

on the surface of an infinitely deep sea
you cannot fly into the sky, because it is not possible to fly
and you cannot touch the bottom, for there is none
but if you try to touch the bottom, you will sink forever
and if you try to fly, you will at least float

"trying to touch the bottom" in this analogy is trying to justify something (like a reason to live, or a belief, or whatever) from the ground up. There is no ground, so if you try to stand on it instead of just swimming, you'll sink.

Unfortunately, Epicurus was right:

"Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little."

I think all this misery I feel is a result of knowing enough to believe that all we see can be completely explained materially and that there is no real meaning, to anything, in a world where I see everyone running about enjoying themselves blissfully unaware, making me feel stupid for taking the time to learn what's going on. Like I'm no longer part of the group.

If you have enough time to sit about and think you end up depressed and want to kill yourself. If you haven't got enough time you're busy trying to make more time so you can afford time to just relax and think.

The only meaning to modern life I can see is to have fun and the people who have the most fun do less thinking. We are all meaningless sacks of meat and bits. Might as well party.

Nah you understood right, and I know it's unreasonable, but feeling existential dread in the first place is unreasonable, and just knowing that doesn't make it stop. — Pfhorrest

But it's a start.
Existential Dread is based on a belief that has become embedded as an item of Faith. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy -- it goes by several names -- is like trying to talk someone out of their belief in alien abductions. They don't just assert that your fears are groundless, but guide you to look at your emotional beliefs consciously and analytically. It won't work for everyone. But it should work well for someone philosophically inclined.

"Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) is a short-term form of psychotherapy that helps you identify self-defeating thoughts and feelings, challenge the rationality of those feelings, and replace them with healthier, more productive beliefs. REBT focuses mostly on the present time to help you understand how unhealthy thoughts and beliefs create emotional distress which, in turn, leads to unhealthy actions and behaviors that interfere with your current life goals. Once identified and understood, negative thoughts and actions can be changed and replaced with more positive and productive behavior, allowing you to develop more successful personal and professional relationships."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapy-types/rational-emotive-behavior-therapy

The only meaning to modern life I can see is to have fun and the people who have the most fun do less thinking. We are all meaningless sacks of meat and bits. Might as well party. — Razorback kitten

A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread—and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness—
Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!
— FitzOmar

If you have enough time to sit about and think you end up depressed and want to kill yourself. If you haven't got enough time you're busy trying to make more time so you can afford time to just relax and think. — Razorback kitten

I must be too depressed, or busy thinking, to bother killing myself.

The only meaning to modern life I can see is to have fun and the people who have the most fun do less thinking. We are all meaningless sacks of meat and bits. Might as well party. — Razorback kitten

Carpe diem, for tomorrow we die. I don't think the mindless partiers are any happier than the depressed philosophers; they just pretend to be. I am an intellectual, but I rub elbows with a lot of folks who aren't, and what strikes me so powerfully about so many of them is how phony they can be. The mask of pretense is perfectly in place, but the mask has cracks through which the desperation can be sense. Mindless prattle is an efficient way of blocking depression and angst... until one shuts up.

I agree. If I speak my mind I argue and disagree with everyone around me. When it comes to any philosophical topic. Which is the only kind of conversation that doesn't drain me and I enjoy. Whilst everyone seems to find it draining to even try and question anything interesting to me.

All the lies are hard to hear. But the honest ones, when people believe what they're saying and you KNOW it's wrong. Those lies are painful to see. But the ones we have to play along with take the biscuit. Like Christmas, Easter or my worst nightmare, someone who believes in ghosts and believes they saw the ghost of a loved one after they died.

How many lies do you need to tell yourself every day to believe you're happy?

Whilst everyone seems to find it draining to even try and question anything interesting to me. — Razorback kitten

I have a neighbor lady who will only talk about her children and her garden club. I stopped talking with her...

my worst nightmare, someone who believes in ghosts and believes they saw the ghost of a loved one after they died. — Razorback kitten

Yes, I had a student trying to tell me that witches and witchcraft are real; she's a fundamentalist christian, so all I said was I won't discuss this with you. My brother use to love to debate those folks, but it makes me nauseous.

I think all this misery I feel is a result of knowing enough to believe that all we see can be completely explained materially and that there is no real meaning, to anything, in a world where I see everyone running about enjoying themselves blissfully unaware, making me feel stupid for taking the time to learn what's going on. Like I'm no longer part of the group.

If you have enough time to sit about and think you end up depressed and want to kill yourself. If you haven't got enough time you're busy trying to make more time so you can afford time to just relax and think.

The only meaning to modern life I can see is to have fun and the people who have the most fun do less thinking. We are all meaningless sacks of meat and bits. Might as well party. — Razorback kitten

Yes I have pretty much retreated into this mode of life, I simply don't think about things too much anymore. but it's not so much about partying for me but rather enjoying the joys of life (however those are defined for you).

I think that persons who never had a theistic structure formed in their brains can more easily do this than those of who had such a structure which then collapsed under philosphical scrutiny. For the latter, the world now just seems like such a hollow, meaningless and chaotic random place. And I've yet to find an escape from that sense. It does kinda make everything surreal, which isn't really great for a sense of engagement in life.

I always had my faith in science. I was in secondary school when I first asked the serious questions and even though science doesn't have those answers I was under the impression that I just wasn't intelligent enough to understand. The big bang for instance is enough for most atheists to accept as a beginning. But, my trouble started when I questioned the standard model. Then I was left with the same issue of having this structure of thought where the answers are all now wrong in some way which shakes everything about. Now I've had to answer all the questions myself, for my sanity, coming to different conclusions and feeling like the biggest outsider, weirdo, annoying shit.

Don't know why I said party because I generally Dodge them. I meant, do the things you enjoy.