I think it makes sense to describe statements or behavior as exhibiting pride or being prideful (I agree with the distinction suggested for those two earlier in the thread). I would say that statements (in terms of utterances we can observe others say) and behavior (again, in terms of observables) are objective.

In what manner are they objective?

Utterances we make--so sounds we make, for example, and behavior we exhibit--so motions we make with our bodies, for example, aren't mental phenomena. (They're correlated to mental phenomena, obviously, but they're not literally mental phenomena.)

And how does that related to "pride" as a human construct?

And how does that related to "pride" as a human construct? — Wallows

What I said is that I think it makes sense to describe some utterances and behavior as exhibiting pride or being prideful. So in that sense, I think it makes sense to say that pride can be objective--that is, insofar as it's referring to particular sorts of utterances or behavior.

So, what kind of utterances or behavior do you surmise as being worthy of a person who experiences pride?

So, what kind of utterances or behavior do you surmise as being worthy of a person who experiences pride? — Wallows

For example, take a cheer that New Jersey Devils fans shout during games--"Rangers suck, Islanders blow, Flyers swallow"--that's a Devils pride chant.

So, I was under the impression that pride (for males at least) manifests in rather peculiar ways. Ahem...

Anyway, I don't think you're really being sincere; but, I digress.

So, I was under the impression that pride (for males at least) manifests in rather peculiar ways. Ahem...

Anyway, I don't think you're really being sincere; but, I digress. — Wallows

Yes, I was being sincere. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the first part.

For example, take a cheer that New Jersey Devils fans shout during games--"Rangers suck, Islanders blow, Flyers swallow"--that's a Devils pride chant. — Terrapin Station

This I find rather odd. To have pride because someone roots for a particular set of complete strangers to him to win a game.
- there is no personal accomplishment involved
- the accomplishment is by total strangers
- the accomplishment is completely independent of the person who is happy about it with pride.

I'm proud of personal accomplishments and personal qualities.

Then again, someone would be also right, who said that I ought not to be proud of those, if I believe in determinism. (Which I believe in. In fact, it's impossible to believe otherwise, if you think logically.)

So I have no reason to feel pride, or to boast about it, either.

Maybe this is why pride is included in the set of seven deadly sins. Because it is a logically unwarranted phenomenon.

In my mind, there's nothing more central and grounding for a man to feel prideful. — Wallows

I have come to understand quite the opposite as being true, after observing that pride is a deconstruction of a natural innocence. But also, as you are finding in this thread, the word functions differently in different contexts.

The pride that is sinful is rooted in a personal insecurity, where one's need is to promote his image in order to gain recognition. One aspect of that, is a fear for being denigrated by others, and when you observe how "masculinity" develops in boys, you will see that it begins as they are mocked or ridiculed for their sensitivities. There is a cultural error that suggests sensitivity, kindness, tenderness are feminine qualities, while toughness and brutishness are masculine qualities. So boys gradually become aware that they are behaving in a "feminine" manner, that empowers their insecurity, to begin closing their sensitive side and developing machoism.

So, while it is pride in conforming to the established "male" character, so that Daddy can be proud of his "tough wee man", and likewise the wee man is proud to be big and tough like his Dad, it really does make us feel ashamed of the part of us that is naturally nice.

When a person does not conform to the role for their gender as imposed by the dominant power/s, they are forced to defend their identity. Because the nature of those who persecute them is sinful (they do not love and support them for who they are in truth - pride is placing conditions on their love), the child finds that expressing pride is a response that deflects the ridicule. Ultimately it is because sin is achieving it's objective, that it momentarily succombs in order to groom the child's confidence in relying upon sin (consider Luke 11:15-22). Then, when they find support from others who sympathise, they join the culture and, taking pride in the established resilience to the injustice, grow to conform to the image of their preferred culture.

Pride takes many forms, not just gender. For instance, there are cultural contentions like washing hands after using the toilet, veganism, sports, music, etc. (For instance, my father bought a computer for me when I was young because he thought I would do well with computers, but in the culture of my town in that time, typing was a woman's job, and I didn't know that computers were about more than typing so I wasn't interested until later in life when it came to me as a supporting tool for other interests). Similarly, there is an older generation who did not have computers, and having been put to shame by the smart confidence of the younger generations, took pride in not adapting. So they are stuck, by pride, in a state of ignorance. They are afraid to learn, because it robs them of dignity - a dignity that they believe us owed to them on account of having predated the technology, and humbling themselves to be taught by the generation that culture says they should be the teachers of.

So that is why I have said that pride is not a central part of being a man, because it in fact robs us from our confidence in being who we truly are meant to be. When you look at children, they don't have such shame in their wholeness of character. In fact, children have no shame whatsoever, until pride works it's way in through the workings of the sin in the world around them, that develops a sense of insecurity and shame for the parts of the boy that it is ashamed by.

That's why Jesus says that we must "turn back and become again as a little child", and other language in the same faith explains that we must "circumcise the foreskin of our heart" (which is poetry, of course - does a heart have foreskin? .. no, but of course there is a parallel effect of the foreskin as being a garment, just as our pride shields our heart from exposure).

One more step, is Genesis 3:16 "your sorrow will multiply and your childbearing will be full of pain, for you will long for your husband but he will be a ruler toward you". Can you see how the man's sin, having become ashamed of his sensitive, real side, and having buried it under machoism and brutishness, is depriving the wife of the intimacy and fulness of love that she naturally craves?

That's why I am more inclined to say that pride takes away from the man, an essential part of being a man, and as a result of finding frustration in his female companion, finds sympathy in his male companions, that where society encourages, can develop into more gratifying acceptance of who we truly are (ironically - seeing as it is all based on a self-denial of part of who we are made to be!).

Likewise, the girls are hurt by the guys' insensitivity and brash womanizing, so they find more fulfilling love in their female friends (because it is that female-type nature that the man has been groomed to cut out of his character in pride).

Now, all of this is not to say that we shouldn't be confident in who we are, or acknowledge our strengths and achievements, because that is simply a recognition of truth when it applies, and it is possible to be so honest while being humble, that comes from a spirit that is securely set above all reproaches (noble).

So we find the truth in this, that love is an opposite of sin, where sin operates to do harm for a self-centred purpose (such as exalting one's self by dishonouring others), whereas love exalts the truth, (even while risking indignity by those who would judge enviously), and love, while putting on display things that are worthy of praise, selflessly encourages others to aspire for greatness where it will produce the same rewards in them.

That's why Jesus says that we must "turn back and become again as a little child", and other language in the same faith explains that we must "circumcise the foreskin of our heart" (which is poetry, of course - does a heart have foreskin? .. no, but of course there is a parallel effect of the foreskin as being a garment, just as our pride shields our heart from exposure). — Serving Zion

SZ, you appear to be connecting the wisdom of an old soul with the wisdom of the scriptures.

You must forgive me, but I am skeptical of the scriptures. Can you please quote the book and line number of the quote by jesus up in the quoted quote? Thanks. I wish to check the CONTEXT in which J said "turn back and become again as a little child".

Would you please be so kind and provide the name of the translation, the book, and the line numbers? Thanks.

I will be frank why I ask you this: I believe one must handle stand-alone quotations with extreme care. The media is full of misplaced quotes that mean polidirectionally other than in the context they had been uttered.

SZ, to wit: I did an honest effort doing an Internet search to find the quote you used. I searched the ultimate Bible website, but it found no matches in four versions of the Bible. The search function can be applied to 61 versions or different translations of the bible. I had no patientce to search all 61, I searched 4 of the most common ones.

Please provide the translation name, and the line numbers of the quote "turn back and become again as a little child".

Looking forward to reading it in context, much appreciation for your future requested effort.

Yep, no problem. You can see it in Matthew 18:1-5, from the Tree of Life Version:


At that hour the disciples came to Yeshua, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

And He called a child to Himself, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Amen, I tell you, unless you turn and become like children, you shall never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then shall humble himself like this child, this one is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in My name, welcomes Me.

That's beautiful. Thank you.

Thanks, SZ. So you need to repent, and prepare yourself for preeminence by humbling yourself. These are the qualities of the children, that Jesus names must be assumed by the Christians in order to secure a premium seat in heaven.

But other qualities of children are not shown here as prerequisites.

You also wrote, that the above applies, because:

When you look at children, they don't have such shame in their wholeness of character. In fact, children have no shame whatsoever, until pride works it's way in through the workings of the sin in the world around them, that develops a sense of insecurity and shame for the parts of the boy that it is ashamed by. — Serving Zion

But how can a child humble himself when he has no shame? To humble oneself, one must have pride. Humbling yourself is a process of losing pride and shame. Once you went through the humbing, then you achieve the state of being humble. If you have no pride, no shame, then there is no objective in humbling yourself... it's like telling a fish to burp, or telling a lion to give up eating carrots. (Sorry, not wanting to make it sound trivial or funny. These two apply in the sense that you can't give something that you don't have.)

So I could see the point if Jesus had said, "You must become like a child, without pride, without shame; and you must humble yourself to achieve that state." This would mean what you see in the quote. But the quote says "You must humble yourself like the child" which means that the child went already through the phase or action of humbling himself or is in that phase or action. Which is not true, because he can't give up pride or shame, since he's got none.

I may sound like I am splitting hairs, and lo and behold, indeed I am splitting hairs. My expectations are high of a believed almighty, who knows everything. He should know the elements of style, and what constitutes clear communication.

Oh, and one bit of advice, meant well, and sincerely, to improve your style to make it even more reflective of a wise old soul. You wrote, "until pride works it's way in through" whereas you should have written "its" in the middle. No apostrophe.

I would never correct anyone's English on this site, it is a bit insulting, and who should throw the first stone anyway? I make my share of mistakes in Engish already. I hope you are above that and receive my gentle correction with the same spirit as I give it to you with. I give this advice to you only with positive intentions.

But how can a child humble himself when he has no shame? To humble oneself, one must have pride. Humbling yourself is a process of losing pride and shame. Once you went through the humbling, then you achieve the state of being humble. If you have no pride, no shame, then there is no objective in humbling yourself... — god must be atheist

That's very astute and you seem to be making an observation that I can't say is untrue .. so I had to look at the original Greek language, because yes, I would agree that it wouldn't reach my expectations of a word of truth, to have such a logical problem. So I have found an opportunity for improvement in the translation, where it says "Whoever then shall humble himself like this child", it naturally lends itself to read as you have done "Whoever then shall humble himself like this child [has done]" .. whereas a more exact translation might say "Whoever then shall humble himself [to become] like this child".

I find this through the Strong's concordance on this website: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/18-4.htm, where it says

• 
  hostis
  ὅστις
  Whoever (whosoever, whichsoever, whatsoever)
• 
  oun
  οὖν
  therefore (therefore, then)
• 
  tapeinōsei
  ταπεινώσει
  will humble (I make or bring low, humble, humiliate; pass: I am humbled)
• 
  heauton
  ἑαυτὸν
  himself (himself, herself, itself)
• 
  hōs
  ὡς
  as (as, like as, about, as it were, according as, how, when, while, as soon as, so that)
• 
  to
  τὸ
  the (the, the definite article)
• 
  paidion
  παιδίον
  little child (a little child, an infant, little one)
• 
  touto
  τοῦτο ,
  this, (this; he, she, it)
• 
  houtos
  οὗτός
  he (this; he, she, it)
• 
  estin
  ἐστιν
  is (I am, exist)
• 
  ho
  ὁ
  the (the, the definite article)
• 
  meizōn
  μείζων
  greatest (large, great, in the widest sense)
• 
  en
  ἐν
  in (in, on, among)
• 
  tē
  τῇ
  the (the, the definite article)
• 
  basileia
  βασιλείᾳ
  kingdom (kingship, sovereignty, authority, rule, especially of God, both in the world, and in the hearts of men; hence: kingdom, in the concrete sense)
• 
  tōn
  τῶν
  of the (the, the definite article)
• 
  ouranōn
  οὐρανῶν .
  heavens (heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens)

.. so we do have problems by not getting the full meaning of the original language (and by getting deficiencies through the translators' best efforts).

Here's some better comparisons:

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore whoever will humble himself as this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child--this one is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Contemporary English Version
But if you are as humble as this child, you are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Good News Translation
The greatest in the Kingdom of heaven is the one who humbles himself and becomes like this child.

Oh, and one bit of advice, meant well, and sincerely, to improve your style to make it even more reflective of a wise old soul. You wrote, "until pride works it's way in through" whereas you should have written "its" in the middle. No apostrophe. — god must be atheist

That's interesting.. thanks for mentioning it! (I do disagree with a few of the rules in English, because they are wrong). So I did a Google search for "apostrophe rules" and I found this article:

https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp, where rule 8 contradicts rule 1a:

Rule 1a. Use the apostrophe to show possession. To show possession with a singular noun, add an apostrophe plus the letter s.

Examples:
a woman's hat
the boss's wife
Mrs. Chang's house

(So that is how I used the apostrophe)

.. but Rule 8 says this:

Rule 8. The personal pronouns hers, ours, yours, theirs, its, whose, and the pronoun oneself never take an apostrophe.

Examples:
Correct: Feed a horse grain. It's better for its health.

Incorrect: Who's glasses are these?
Correct: Whose glasses are these?

Incorrect: Talking to one's self in public is odd.
Correct: Talking to oneself in public is odd.

.. and I do not like it. Maybe it is pride, I will need to consider it. Sometimes, just as my topic has said, culture is wrong and the non-conformity is the right thing to do. I'll think about it.

You may be the best cook in your town. Maybe everyone heaps praise on you and you beam with pride. Then a new chef moves into town, or you enter an International competition and come last: this is a test of of your character. Pride is not ‘bad’ yet people can be misled by the poor opinions of others and find it extremely hard to recover.

Shame is a means to understanding the value of pride, encouragement, and success and failure. We’re not particularly good at taking criticism. Maturity is the ability to take harsh criticism and to assess as readily as possible what others have to offer.

We simply cannot take everything everyone says with the same degree of sincerity and so as individuals we have to come to a compromise and willingly accept that we’ll dismiss good criticism and accept bad criticism no matter how careful we are.

Beauty, or ugliness, is revealed when we make mistakes not generally when we have a lucky success. It is rarity to see beauty exposed in success - pride being the boon of failures had and the poison of failures avoided.

Rule 8. The personal pronouns hers, ours, yours, theirs, its, whose, and the pronoun oneself never take an apostrophe. — Serving Zion

It's this pronoun I am talking about. Its proper spelling lacks an apostrophe. It's not a big deal, but it's the most common mistake made in English spelling even by its most learned users. It's a world of a difference when it reflects its users academic ability and learnedness.

Thanks for delving into the issue of how to be childlike in the Christian sense to illuminate the wording for my sake. I hope there was something in it for you, too... and it looks like there was.

How much of what we achieve is solely our own accomplishment? I don’t believe we accomplish much (if anything) in isolation these days, such that one can take full credit for it as a person. I think that in everything we do, we have someone else to thank for their contribution to the accomplishment.

I think that pride has a tendency to overlook this. When we are proud ‘in our personhood’, we claim all the credit for an accomplishment, often without regard for those who have contributed to the achievement: those who designed or produced the tools we wield with the skills that we’ve been given the opportunity to learn from willing teachers, for instance.

I notice that @Bitter Crank made some distinctions between masculine and feminine roles and how pride is manifest. I don’t normally subscribe to gender stereotypes, but there’s something in this, I think.

I wonder sometimes if there is undue pressure on men in particular to be defined or identified only by achievements they can be proud of - specifically what they do without help.

I think that many women build a sense of pride in association, and often define their ‘personhood’ by certain relationships they can be proud of. The interesting thing is that women also feel pride in their own skills and achievements, just as men do.

Would you say that men also feel a sense of pride in their relationships? Or would they consider this a weakness of sorts? I notice that @Terrapin Station has mentioned pride in relation to sporting teams.

So if we return to the questions I asked before, when pride in a certain skill or achievement is dented (as in ’s example), I think women perhaps recover more easily than men because of the pride they also draw from their relationships.

Which takes me back to the first comments I made here about the contribution of others in our accomplishments. If we accept that anything we achieve is not so much a purely personal effort as a combination of awareness, connection and collaboration with the world around us, than I would argue that being able to draw pride from our relationships is a key element of that. It allows us to feel proud of collaborative achievements - accomplishments that others have contributed to.

It's a world of a difference when it reflects its users academic ability and learnedness. — god must be atheist

...as opposed to the apostrophe in ‘user’s’? :wink:

You're right. I was wrong. Users'.

Good catch.

It's this pronoun I am talking about. Its proper spelling lacks an apostrophe. It's not a big deal, but it's the most common mistake made in English spelling even by its most learned users. It's a world of a difference when it reflects its users academic ability and learnedness. — god must be atheist

It just looks wrong to me because of the principles of rule 1a, but I guess I can grow to appreciate it. The examples you gave here have helped me to appreciate it too! :D

I understand your advice about guarding reputation, and I will make use of that. Being mindful of the cost, I do think that sometimes I will choose to break the rules where it is useful for special emphasis.

Thanks for delving into the issue of how to be childlike in the Christian sense to illuminate the wording for my sake. I hope there was something in it for you, too... and it looks like there was. — god must be atheist

Yeah I didn't notice it until you said it, but now I am thinking more too, about the nature of humbleness being measured as an absence of pride, and looking to see whether there is any distinction of honour between persons of perfect humbleness (which I can't recall from memory). So, yes I will be understanding better as I continue to observe with that context. Thanks! :)

This I find rather odd. To have pride because someone roots for a particular set of complete strangers to him to win a game. — god must be atheist

With sports, it's similar to, though not exactly the same as, national pride. People often have pride in their country where, with respect to what their pride is focused on, they didn't do any of that stuff personally. National pride might be about the country's history, its accomplishments in terms of what various citizens have done, its laws, it might be about what's considered to be the country's "attitude" where the person with pride in it doesn't really have that attitude themselves, etc.

With sports, fans tend to identify with the teams they support. They say, "We won!" "We just signed Jones!" "We've got a long road trip starting next week," etc. Fans see themselves as part of the team's organization (and to some extent, the team would probably agree, because without the fans, especially the ones who go to games, the teams wouldn't exist).

Thanks, Terrapin Station, the mechanism is there, I understand it now. But I still don't understand the survival value of team sports. If I am proud of my nation, I will fight for my nation and not spy against it (unless of course I am offered a hefty sum and 49 extra virgins, oiled, on the side).

But team sports teams don't fight for scarce resources. So there will be no survival value if your team wins the world series or something. Only pride.

You explained it: we ought not to feel pride for our respective nations' past successes. So why ought we to feel pride for our respective and competing victories? You said it best.

I am still at odds why the outbursts of pride after a victory at a hockey game or football match. If you bet, you can grin if you win. If you lose, you can gnash your teeth.

It's like being proud of winning the lottery. "I know how to pick numbers," and beats his chest with his fist. (An imaginary person.)

The point about national sports teams is that their activities are a substitute for war.

What's wrong with supremacy? — Bitter Crank

It leads to lynchings to maintain the border between supreme and non-supreme.

But if it's fluid, maybe not.

What are your thoughts about pride? — Wallows

Since the emotion exists, it undoubtedly has a role somewhere, but like all emotions, it needs to be strictly controlled.

Religion warns against (uncontrolled) pride: Thirty-third Greater Sin: Pride or Arrogance

The worst form of pride is the refusal to worship God, which is otherwise his due:

Then there are individuals who do not deny the existence of Allah (S.w.T.) but they show their arrogance against Allah (S.w.T.) by not worshipping Allah (S.w.T.) and by disobeying Allah (S.w.T.)’s orders regarding obligatory and prohibited acts.

On the other hand, it is not allowed to be humble with atheists:

A disbeliever is not deserving of respect because he does not acknowledge Allah (S.w.T.), the Supreme Being and in effect has degraded himself to a despicable position of those who openly defy Allah (S.w.T.).

Islamic religious law is adamant that other believers should be approached with humility while atheists must be despised.