couple of thoughts right off: prideful and pride are not the same. the former tends to be excessive. The second thought is that it is central to and grounding for both men and women.

From there I think the concept is so subjective that what one person takes as pride could be anything from foolhardy to deluded to correct positive self-evaluation to stubborness to entitlement to 'not hating yourself' to a lack of shame and so on.

The second thought is that it is central to and grounding for both men and women. — Coben

Women too? How does this manifest in?

Children, husband, nurturing?

Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins, along with greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth. Pride cometh before a fall. Pride particularly galls the holy church because the upstart proud man is likely to challenge the priestly prick, possibly on his home turf. The church loves humility, which maketh men less troublesome. My advice: Raise a little hell.

there's nothing more central and grounding for a man to feel proud prideful — Wallows

I think this is true. A man should feel proud in his personhood, and his performance should bear some relationship to his pride. So, if a man feels pride in his skill with tools, he should be able to get good work done with his tools. If he is proud of his hunting prowess, then he should be able to bag a deer every now and then. It isn't so important what a man feels proud of, but that he should have accomplishment about which to feel pride.

Boys should be raised to be proud of themselves, and to do something about which to be proud.

Having shame and embarrassment in one's self might sometimes be justified, but usually it is a sign of somebody who has been beaten down.

Pride is important for women too, but is likely to manifest itself in different terms than for men.

Well, women started as girls. So, pride in whatever they do: pride in things they create, sports, friendships, artistic work, good acts, clever acts, doing well in school....and so on. Then as adults anything from academic work to work work to family to any achievements, skills, character strengths, courage, whatever.

So, another kind of pride is "Gay Pride" the feeling and the ideology that being gay and that men loving men is good, and about which no apologies need be made.

Black pride and Gay Pride both seek the redress of past humiliations. So, some kinds of pride have a healing function.

Towards Men or Masculinity? They are associated, but certainly not synonymous - if we’re using the term ‘masculinity’ in its psychological capacity (masculine and feminine traits being traits held by both sexes).

If you’re asking how men and women feel pride and whether there is a difference ... I imagine so, but I wouldn’t consider the difference to be spectacularly different. In general terms women are more interested in people than men and men are more interested in things, so, I guess we could insinuate that men lean more toward pride in technological achievements and material production than women, and that women lean more toward social achievements and relationships than men?

That would be a very surface view and one that only offers solid enough premises but likely faulty conclusions as there are more nuances involved that probably swing such differences closer together.

I would say pride has a tendency to shift more toward the regard of people and how they feel they fit into a group and the groups attitudes toward them, than to a more singular, meaning segregated, self-evaluation and ‘joy’ at one’s own progress irrespective of societal pressures and ideals (which are forever part of human life to some degree).

Hope that covers it?

... pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth.

So where does wallowing fit in here.

Pride in the context of the seven deadly sins is closely related to arrogance and feelings of supremacy, whereas pride nowadays seems to be a synonym for confidence or self-assuredness.

What's wrong with supremacy?

A man should feel proud in his personhood, and his performance should bear some relationship to his pride. — Bitter Crank

Performance? *Cringes*

In terms of what?

Pride is important for women too, but is likely to manifest itself in different terms than for men. — Bitter Crank

How?

So, some kinds of pride have a healing function. — Bitter Crank

Hmm, yes, I suppose so. This is fascinating. Different kinds of pride? And, how does pride instill healing into a human being?

Stop cringing. Performance in terms of all the sorts of life-tasks men engage in: the job, mowing the lawn, painting the house, keeping the car in good shape, his self-presentation before the world (the way we put ourselves together in the morning), his expertise, bravery, daring, risk taking, thinking up topics for this forum. All sorts of things.

What did you think I meant -- skill at fucking? Well, some guys do it better than others.

And where does philosophy fit in here? It seems like the antithesis, seemingly.

People who have been forced to think poorly of themselves because they are homosexual, disabled, black, short, blind, deaf, etc. internalize self-hatred (or at least very low expectations) and suffer more stress and health consequences from stress.

Pride can't be injected like testosterone; pride has to be built up. Pride for the beaten down requires a change process over time in which persons reinterpret themselves as capable, adept, strong, men worthy of respect because of who they are.

Things are better now than they used to be for many people because of pride movements. Gay pride is 50 years old now. Its work was completed for its 1969 generation a long time ago. Subsequent generations of homosexuals experiencing prejudice need a pride movement too. So do blind people, deaf people, wheelchair-bound people, blacks, and so forth.

Years of work by various 'uplift' or 'pride' groups have considerably diminished the sense of inferiority that groups I mentioned experienced. It's what gives confidence for a group of deaf friends to go out on public transportation and confidently sign to each other, go to bars, restaurants, and so forth.

And where does philosophy fit in here? It seems like the antithesis, seemingly. — Wallows

I don't know why you would read what I said that way. man (generic human) is first and foremost an actor, one who performs roles in life. How one interprets the roles one has, or the roles that are available is a philosophical task. Even someone doing something "merely mechanical" or menial or unpleasant (like a machinist, custodian, or a sewer worker) can and should place his work in a larger context. That's a philosophical task.

You have meditated plenty on your role in life. Many people here have. If philosophy has nothing to say about how one exists in the ordinary world, then what the fuck good is it?

One can gain pride from a successful assessment which find the true value of one's work in the real world. It can be difficult, but even anonymous paper processors in the back offices of brokerages have a real function in the world. And they are real people functioning in the world, and who may loathe their work. That's worth philosophizing about, I'd say.

You have meditated plenty on your role in life. Many people here have. If philosophy has nothing to say about how one exists in the ordinary world, then what the fuck good is it? — Bitter Crank

Linguistic confusion.

Pride is important for women too, but is likely to manifest itself in different terms than for men.
— Bitter Crank

How? — Wallows

Again, things have changed over time, and many women are in something of a bind. They used to stay at home and care for children and do homemaking work. The reason so many women gave up that role and took wage work was that the man's income no longer was adequate to support a family with one job. (This changed, starting in the 1960s). Most families discovered that two incomes were necessary for them to maintain the lifestyle they had, or had lost and wanted to regain.

Women who have gone into hourly wage and salaried work have found it a mixed blessing. Yes, it has produced the kind of income their family needed (husband's and wife's together). But children and homes don't take care of themselves. So, more work.

Plus, women discovered what a lot of men discovered: work sucks. So, women, like men, have to find some sort of validation in their sucky jobs, just like men do. It can be difficult.

Linguistic confusion. — Wallows

What, exactly, do you mean by that? I am confused or you are confused? (It wasn't an attack, so lower your shields.).

It's 2:19. I think I should go to bed. It's been great.

You tell me. I just wanted to point out the difference in the two definitions.

What, exactly, do you mean by that? I am confused or you are confused? (It wasn't an attack, so lower your shields.). — Bitter Crank

Don't you know? I have a PhD in Wittgensteinian analysis. (Think about the oxymoronic quality of that statement).

It's 2:19. I think I should go to bed. It's been great. — Bitter Crank

OK, goodnight.

:cool:

What is "pride"?

I've been wondering about this concept central to masculinity. In my mind, there's nothing more central and grounding for a man to feel prideful.

What are your thoughts about pride? — Wallows

Pride is pleasure at, or a high opinion of, one’s accomplishments or value.

This is fine and commendable only so long as we aren’t positioning this value in relation to those around us. But we do, don’t we?

Can I still feel proud of my skill with certain tools when I observe someone demonstrating more skill with the same tools? If my sense of pride hinges on being the ‘best’ at something, then discovering that I’m not is bound to knock that pride around a bit.

If my pride takes a knock in this respect, how do I recover from it? Do I feel the need to claw my way back to that original relative position at all cost, or can I still find pleasure in my accomplishments or value?

All good questions. You tell me?

Not a term I use outside of (a) talking about lions, (b) talking about sports camaraderie, (c) talking about the U2 song.

So, another kind of pride is "Gay Pride" — Bitter Crank

Ah, that too. Although usually I only use the term there to refer to the parade.

Women too? How does this manifest in?

Children, husband, nurturing? — Wallows

No, no. More like, "Everybody wants to bone me. Mm-mm."

As if the concept didn't apply to you...

:brow:

As if the concept didn't apply to you... — Wallows

I'm just saying it's not a term I normally use. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do I feel pride about anything? I don't think so. I like stuff I interact with, that I'm a fan of, etc., and sure, I like myself, too, but I like most things really, and most people.

For example, I like my country a lot, but I like every country, every place I've spent time in. I wish I had endless time and endless resources so I could live everywhere for awhile.

Even with sports--and I'm a big sports fan, I'm a fan of a bunch of different teams, and there aren't any teams I hate. I have a "rooting hierarchy" basically. I wouldn't say I really have "pride" in my teams, in my country, etc., because to me that suggests placing it on a pedestal above other stuff, and I like almost everything. I like variety.

Yeah, so once again I can almost hear you say that there's no objective quality to the concept of pride.

Is that right?