When you're driving a car daydreaming and run a red light and crash into someone is that your conscious or subconscious? — 3017amen

Daydreaming is a conscious mental phenomenon. So is awareness while driving, although simple awareness is not the same sort of mental phenomenon as imagining or fantasizing.

Regarding atheism as a belief, it sounds like another religion, doesn't it? — 3017amen

I wouldn't say so. Religions are "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods," "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs" or something similar. Religions aren't just any arbitrary belief.

But it's grounded in a belief system, is it not? — Wayfarer

I wouldn't say that. It's a moral exhortation. Moral stances aren't a belief system, since moral stances aren't even true or false. We could say that it involves a belief that there are others to treat some way, but I wouldn't say that's a "belief system" or that it's indicative of one.

Atheism also isn't a "belief system" or even necessarily a belief (if we accept the notion of "negative atheism").

If you say that is the extent of god's existence, I can find no disagreement. :grin: — Janus

That's the extent of it as far as I can tell.

Does music theory confer biological survival value?

LOL

Daydreaming is a conscious mental phenomenon. So is awareness while driving, although simple awareness is not the same sort of mental phenomenon as imagining or fantasizing.


Interesting... I have many questions about your belief in consciousness, but I'll ask just one right now about phenomenon. What's the religious experience? Is that a phenomenon?

Interesting... I have many questions about your belief in consciousness, but I'll ask just one right now about phenomenon. What's the religious experience? Is that a phenomenon? — 3017amen

All experiences are conscious mental phenomena. "Experience" is a broad term for temporally -unfolding mental awareness of something.

Religions are "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods," "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, "

I'm confused. You are saying you have a belief in atheism. Does that mean you have a belief that God does not exist?

Secondly, you use the word personal. Are you saying you know the truth about subjective truths?

And so is the subconscious a phenomenon?

I'm confused. You are saying you have a belief in atheism. Does that mean you have a belief that God does not exist? — 3017amen

I have a (justified, true) belief that god does not exist, yes. (And I told you this in a post above, by the way.)

Are you saying you know the truth about subjective truths? — 3017amen

Sure, I'd say that (if you're asking from a meta, truth-theory perspective).

And so is the subconscious a phenomenon? — 3017amen

Not a mental phenomenon, no. Unconscious brain functions are not mental phenomena.

have a (justified, true) belief that god does not exist, yes. (And I told you this in a post above, by the way.)


Using consciousness, how can you prove that your belief is true?

Sure, I'd say that (if you're asking from a meta, truth-theory perspective).

I'm still confused. Are you saying you can get inside my head and objectively tell me whether my subjective truth is objective?

Not a mental phenomenon, no. Unconscious brain functions are not mental phenomena.

But if I'm driving down the road daydreaming and kill myself in the process, what told me to do that?

Using consciousness, how can you prove that your belief is true? — 3017amen

"Proof" is a red herring. Empirical claims are not provable, and proof in the context of logic and mathematics is simply a matter of whether something follows per the system we've set up.

One way that I know the claim is true, though, is that the very idea of nonphysical existents is incoherent. I had mentioned this to you either earlier in this thread or in the previous thread.

I'm still confused. Are you saying you can get inside my head and objectively tell me whether my subjective truth is objective? — 3017amen

This is the first time you're introducing the word "objective." I hadn't said anything about that. Subjective truth isn't objective, of course. That's a simple contradiction. You don't need to repeat the adjective again, but subjective truth is subjective, obviously. That simply means that truth is something that occurs via mentality. Namely, it's a judgment about the relation of a proposition to something else.

But if I'm driving down the road daydreaming and kill myself in the process, what told me to do that? — 3017amen

What "told you" to have an accident? Nothing "tells you" to have an accident. It's an accident.

What "told you" to have an accident? Nothing "tells you" to have an accident. It's an accident.
now


Forgive me for not following your logic. If I'm having an accident, what caused me to have that accident to kill myself?

Or let me say it in the reverse order. What can help me prevent the accident while I'm daydreaming driving a car?

Forgive me for not following your logic. If I'm having an accident, what caused me to have that accident to kill myself? — 3017amen

In the scenario you're talking about, the simple fact that you're not paying much attention to what you're doing with respect to driving.

What can help you prevent it is to pay attention to it.

Subjective truth isn't objective, of course. That's a simple contradiction.


Interesting of course that begs many questions at the heart of atheism.

1. God does not exist.

Using your logic from your quote, is that an objective truth or subjective truth?

Using your logic from your quote, is that an objective truth or subjective truth? — 3017amen

Truth is never objective. Truth is a judgment we make--so a mental activity, about the relation of a proposition to something else. So by definition, it's subjective.

"Proof" is a red herring. Empirical claims are not provable, and proof in the context of logic and mathematics is simply a matter of whether something follows per the system we've set up.

I agree.

So how can you demonstrate that God doesn't exist then?

Through what method of logic?

"Proof" is a red herring. Empirical claims are not provable, and proof in the context of logic and mathematics is simply a matter of whether something follows per the system we've set up.

I agree.

So how can you demonstrate that God doesn't exist then?

Through what method of logic?

So how can you demonstrate that God doesn't exist then? — 3017amen

One way you demonstrate it is empirically. By showing that everywhere you look, there's no god.

Another way you demonstrate it is via the fact that the notion of a nonphysical existent is incoherent. (I've already explained this many times.)

Truth is never objective. Truth is a judgment we make--so a mental activity, about the relation of a proposition to something else. So by definition, it's subjective."

That would mean your belief that God doesn't exist is a subjective truth?

Another way you demonstrate it is via the fact that the notion of a nonphysical existent is incoherent. (I've already explained this many times.)


Gotcha, then describe to me the color red? Or better yet, describe the feeling of love?

That would mean your belief that God doesn't exist is a subjective truth? — 3017amen

Beliefs aren't truths period. Truth is a property of propositions. But yes, it would mean that the truth of "God does not exist" is subjective, because a fortiori, all truth-value is subjective. All this means is that truth-value is a judgment that we make about the relation of a proposition to something else. It's not saying anything about whether anything is a fact or not, it doesn't amount to saying that facts are subjective, etc.

In the scenario you're talking about, the simple fact that you're not paying much attention to what you're doing with respect to driving.

What can help you prevent it is to pay attention to it.


But what if I simply can't pay attention and I have an accident what caused that?

What in my consciousness caused that?

Gotcha, then describe to me the color red? Or better yet, describe the feeling of love? — 3017amen

They make these things called "dictionaries" that will do this for you for any word you like. You can even get them in other languages.

Red - "of a color at the end of the spectrum next to orange and opposite violet, as of blood, fire, or rubies."

Love - "an intense feeling of deep affection"

But what if I simply can't pay attention and I have an accident what caused that? — 3017amen

I already said, the fact that you weren't paying attention caused it.

What in my consciousness caused that? — 3017amen

Nothing. The lack of conscious attention with respect to driving caused it.

Love - "an intense feeling of deep affection"

What is human sentience then, how is that physical?

What is human sentience then, how is that physical? — 3017amen

It's a set of brain states. Brains are physical.

I already said, the fact that you weren't paying attention caused it.


But cognitive science says it was my subconscious are you refuting that?