• Robert Lockhart
    170
    Regardless of whether it is ultimately material in origin, as an experience in the world consciousness presents to each individual as an immaterial phenomenon – i.e. as a phenomenon the experience of which (at the irreducible level) does not in principle involve the senses. This as opposed to all other phenomena in the world, encountered via our consciousness, which present to us as a material experience – i.e. as an experience involving the senses and thus definable by measurement in sensorial terms, such measurement then acting to provide a set of criteria permitting the evaluation of theoretical models to reproduce the phenomena in terms of measurements observed.

    Surely then, regarding any attempt to describe Consciousness by means of the scientific method, the obvious question would be how is it in principle that such a method could be appropriate to the description of a phenomenon that is not definable in terms of sensorial measurement? Ostensibly at least, the answer would seem to be be that there is no means by which such a method could be suited to the treatment of the question of consciousness - and further, that the inadequacies of those attempts using the scientific method to describe consciousness which have to date been made follow as a direct consequence of the irrelevance of the method to the nature of the question concerned.

    In practice, no theory yet advanced purporting to account for the phenomenon of consciousness using the scientific method has managed to fully satisfy the criteria required in order to qualify as a ‘scientific theory’. Hardly surprising, since the primary requirement of a ‘scientific theory’ is that it provide a quantitative mechanism capable to reproduce the observed measurements defining the phenomenon concerned. As an example, the 19th century theory of ‘Phlogiston’, advanced before oxygen was identified, though subsequently proven to be wrong, did conform to the criteria necessary in order to meet the status of a scientific theory, in that it provided a quantitative mechanism to specifically reproduce the relevant measurements observed. As a contrast, no theory attempting to account for consciousness – even the more complex involving the ideas of Quantum Mathematics – has managed the trick of producing a mechanism to demonstrate a logical line of causal descent directly reproducing the nature of the experience of consciousness we undergo in practice.

    No matter how high, on this side of the divide between the material and the immaterial, the scientific hypotheses were piled up – by what means could it ever in principle be envisaged that they would be capable to bridge one nanometre of the chasm between?
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Are you talking about phenomenal consciousness or access consciousness? Very different things.
  • Robert Lockhart
    170
    Just the irreducable personal experience of consciousness of self-existance by which we all operate from the cradle to the grave - devoid of verbal qualification.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    So, the part I agree with you about is that describing consciousness from a third-person, scientific perspective--maybe some sort of physico-chemico-biological perspective, is never going to be as useful for most purposes as more abstract, "folk"/psychological terms about experiences, desires, concepts, etc.

    For similar reasons, describing music, or visual art, or anything like that from a physico-chemical perspective is never going to be as useful as the "folk" terms we commonly use for that stuff, either.

    No one is under the illusion that music or visual art isn't physical/material stuff. It's just that talking about it in those terms isn't nearly as useful for most purposes as talking about it with the more abstract "folk" terms.

    Physical descriptions don't actually hinge on talking about sensory experiences. A lot of stuff in physics, for example, isn't something you could sense. For example, you can't sense a neutrino. You can't even sense meteorological pressure systems really. We just sense things like temperature differences, humidity, wind, etc.

    And I don't agree with "as an experience in the world consciousness presents to each individual as an immaterial phenomenon." I can't even make sense out of the idea of something "immaterial." So I couldn't say that my consciousness seems immaterial to me.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Specifying which you mean with "verbal qualification" is important because there's two very different senses of the word "consciousness", one of which is entirely amenable to scientific study and the other not. I argue that the kind that is not is trivial and there isn't really anything more to say about it, and the kind that is is the important kind that distinguishes things like humans from things like rocks. It sounds like you're talking about the trivial kind, so I don't have much more to say on that subject (besides the differentiation of it in the essay I just linked).
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    I'm guessing you'd say that "access consciousness" is amenable to scientific study? (Also, it seems like on the page you're linking to, you define "access consciousness" differently than Ned Block does . . . which doesn't have to be a problem, of course, but Block's distinction is the one I'm familiar with, even if I'm not sure it holds much water.)

    In what way would you say that "access consciousness" is amenable to scientific study if other types or aspects of consciousness are not?
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I’m curious to hear you elaborate on how my definition of access consciousness differs from Block’s because I wasn’t aiming to / didn’t realize I was saying anything different.

    Anyway, access consciousness as I mean it is an entirely functional thing and so can be studied of human brains just like the function of any other physical thing can be studied.
  • Echarmion
    2.7k
    Physical descriptions don't actually hinge on talking about sensory experiences. A lot of stuff in physics, for example, isn't something you could sense. For example, you can't sense a neutrino. You can't even sense meteorological pressure systems really. We just sense things like temperature differences, humidity, wind, etc.Terrapin Station

    Still, our knowledge of all these things is ultimately based on sensory data.

    And I don't agree with "as an experience in the world consciousness presents to each individual as an immaterial phenomenon." I can't even make sense out of the idea of something "immaterial." So I couldn't say that my consciousness seems immaterial to me.Terrapin Station

    Would you agree that it's non-physical?
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    Irrelevance in principle is a high bar. Please justify.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Still, our knowledge of all these things is ultimately based on sensory data.Echarmion

    Exactly, all of our observation of things besides the direct occasions of our experience are indirect. We have a sensory experience, we notice patterns in that sensory experience, we postulate the existence of things to explain those patterns in our experience, and check to see if the patterns continue to hold up to those we would expect from those explanations. The most concrete reality is just sense-data; everything else, from ordinary objects like rocks and trees to neutrinos and quantum fields, is an abstraction from that sense-data projected "behind" it (so to speak) in an attempt to explain it.
  • Isaac
    10.3k
    a phenomenon the experience of which (at the irreducible level) does not in principle involve the sensesRobert Lockhart

    Firstly, name the 'senses'. Secondly, explain why you think some brain activity ('the senses') make the conclusions therefrom amenable to investigation, yet other brain activity (awareness) does not.
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