YOU have always existed? I did suspect you are a relation to Jesus the Christ. — god must be atheist

can't you see yourself for what you are? Take a step back & look at yourself. Repent your evil ways my brother/sister.

I think you need to hone your own personal definition of what comprises a proof, and get it more in line with the way the rest of the gang here uses that word. — god must be atheist

if you are in the gang then it is the last place any civilised person would want to be. Thank you for the offer though........* backs slowly away without making eye contact

if you are in the gang then it is the last place any civilised person would want to be. Thank you for the offer though........* backs slowly away without making eye contact — Ocean777

Well, if you think I am the devil, then FEAR ME, o god-worshipping cretin! I'm going to come and eat you alive, hamm-hamm.

Das schmeckt! (burp)

Possible 'God' derivation history—an assortment to ponder, from my draft extensions to the Rubaiyat in the religious area:

The Christian concept of reward and punishment
Handed out by an omnipotent, omniscient God,
Is derivative of the family experience,
The child and parent, a conception of our world.

They looked unto their calamities,
Their powerful rulers and enemies,
As in their olden family structure’s way,
Of strict father, and mother with no say.

This Father Notion they based on themselves,
As the best answer that was ever delved:
The demanding Male Mind who was called ‘God’,
An idea for some to this day, well trod.

Structure was needed for 'God' to persist:
They extended the Notion with more myths
And legends into lore layered upon,
Inventing the old scrolls of scripture on.

‘God’ brought both fear and comfort in those days,
Making people better through fearsome ways,
Although worse for some—the unchosen tribes,
Protecting their notions, as taught by scribes.

A wasteland of superstition plod,
Instantiates the meaning for ‘God’.
Emotion e’er sets up a firm blockade
As thoughts fired build more the stockade.

And now-a-days:

Myth’s performance is well over its tasks;
The artists have taken off their masks.
The illusion is fading; it couldn’t last;
The science behind is appearing fast.

They tried to undo evolution’s pace of snails,
But the stratified fossils ever told the tales
Of no special humans at once unveiled,
But of only natural selection’s weathered sails.

I don't think we are the weakest species. Not in physical strength, nor in adaptivity. — Coben

We definitely grow into that, sure, but look at how long it takes as compared to all other life.
You seem to begin your evaluation when we are adults but ignore how weak and dependent on others we are for so many years when we are young.

It is not something that is selfish in the human sense of egotistical. I can assure you that Dawkins is not attributing personality to dna. — Coben

I agree with this and hope I did not indicate otherwise.

how could we possibly be the weakest most insecure species? — Coben

See above.

This second part, bolded below, makes no sense to me at all....
We are the weakest and most insecure and nature does the best it can with what it has to work with in insuring that we work to be the fittest of our species — Coben

Let me put best thinker in the fittest description even if that is possibly debatable.

We are not all born with the equal ability to think. Nature will not know this and thus will still push all poor thinkers to being the best thinkers and fittest. It can only work with what was born though. Nature demonstrably tries to bring all organisms to their best possible end, even though that best end might be inferior to the fittest of our species. I hope that is understandable the way I have put it.

I don't see nature making sure most people are the fittest of our species. — Coben

Neither do I and don't think I suggested that. I do suggest that nature pushes us all to be the fittest and it is to us to select who those fittest are. The tribe decides that, not nature, although we are a part of nature so I might be contradicting myself with the language and could say that we guide nature and human standards of fittest. In times of peace, we might see the most peaceful as the fittest and at time of war, the strongest warrior might be seen as the fittest. The fittest will likely always be seen as the one most helpful in the survival of the many.

Nature is working with each individual to insure they are the fittest homo sapien? I don't see this. Many seem content with less than being fittest, some content with not being fit at all. — Coben

This is not surprising as our tribal natures insure that there is a hierarchy in our species as otherwise the tribal members would war against each other perpetually.

Imagine us as a pack of dogs. One the fittest has been found, the Alpha male, the numbers of challengers or challenges to his rule tend to drop off till he shows weakness. That is when he is deposed.

Regards
DL

Again we only have the word of our fellow man as proof & that is never enough. — Ocean777

I have also been mocked for claiming an apotheosis. I expect it though and am surprised that you do not, especially from so called believers because the vast majority of them do not really believe the way they say they believers. Most religionists are liars and hypocrites just like their preachers.

Belief is a dead end discussion and that is why I focus on the important part of religions which is the morals they teach.

The religious know that in moral terms, their gods are rotten to the core, and always run away when moral discussions are at hand. If that were not the case, the mainstream religions would have grown by good moral tenets instead of inquisitions and jihads. For of arms is all they have while force of good morals should be their forte.

If you have had an apotheosis, I am surprised you did not know this as my apotheosis certainly taught me that. I guess that the god you found is not the same god as the one I found.

A shame as mine seems more in tune with what is important.

Regards
DL

Sometimes it is absolutely bizarre stuff which I would never imagine could happen in my life, & yet it happens just as God told me it would. — Ocean777

Verification and documentation is required for others to believe as you do.

Strange that your god did not tell you to do that.

Your god seems to lack competence in communication techniques.

Regards
DL

AngryBear

+ 1

To not think in metaphors and analogies is foolish.

Regards
DL

PoeticUniverse — PoeticUniverse

+ 1

Regards
DL

We definitely grow into that, sure, but look at how long it takes as compared to all other life.
You seem to begin your evaluation when we are adults but ignore how weak and dependent on others we are for so many years when we are young. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

So when you refer to humans as the most insecure and weak species, you mean when they are babies?

I agree with this and hope I did not indicate otherwise. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

This was regarding the selfish gene and personality. OK, well good to hear. But the gene is driving us as individuals. IOW whatever traits are connected to parents that procreate, will be passed on. Those traits will not necessarily lead to individuals that are fittest. That word can have all sorts of false connotations, wheras when Darwin adopted it, he meant....better designed for an immediate, local environment.

in any case when you mentioned it earlier it sounded like it meant that we would each as individuals be driven by our genes to be the fittest of the species. And that's not correct. It would not necessarily at all lead us to want to be better or fitter than other individual humans.

We are not all born with the equal ability to think. Nature will not know this and thus will still push all poor thinkers to being the best thinkers and fittest. It can only work with what was born though. Nature demonstrably tries to bring all organisms to their best possible end, even though that best end might be inferior to the fittest of our species. I hope that is understandable the way I have put it. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I don't see nature pushing us to be the best thinkers and fittest.

I don't see nature making sure most people are the fittest of our species.
— Coben

Neither do I and don't think I suggested that. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

nature does the best it can with what it has to work with in insuring that we work to be the fittest of our species

OK, i see here you were only suggetsting that nature ensures that we work to be the fittest of our species. We may not succeed, but nature ensures that we work toward that. I don't see nature doing this, nor to I see most people working toward being the fittest of our species.

I also don't see nature pushing people to be the best thinkers.

Perhaps you mean, if we lived in what gets called nature. Like say in hunter gatherer societies. I am nto sure. But I don't, for example, see nature pushing people to be the best thinkers in cities. Really, I don't see it anywhere. But I am not sure what process you see that you are referring to.

Nature is working with each individual to insure they are the fittest homo sapien? I don't see this. Many seem content with less than being fittest, some content with not being fit at all. — Coben

This is not surprising as our tribal natures insure that there is a hierarchy in our species as otherwise the tribal members would war against each other perpetually.

Imagine us as a pack of dogs. One the fittest has been found, the Alpha male, the numbers of challengers or challenges to his rule tend to drop off till he shows weakness. That is when he is deposed. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Nature is pushing us to be fittest and our tribal natures ensure there is a hierarchy? This is me, trying to get a handle on this.

The nature you see us as pushing us to be the fittest. what is this nature? What are you referring to?

So when you refer to humans as the most insecure and weak species, you mean when they are babies? — Coben

That for sure, but also as we grow. Our insecurity makes us form and or join tribes that appease our insecurity and fellowship needs. Tribes mean safety in numbers and we continue to join or be in tribes till we die. Even religious tribes that we know have immoral tenets like Christianity and Islam, which shows the depth of our insecurity.

My favorite moral psychologist talks of some of this if you have the time to give this link a listen.
Logic and reason is likely all you need though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

Those traits will not necessarily lead to individuals that are fittest. — Coben

I disagree and see nature always creating an organism for it's best possible end.
Remember that our selfish gene does not know if there are more fit organisms out there and is ready to compete if it has to. We default to cooperation as that is the best survival/fitness technique but will compete for resources and mating opportunities if we have to.

When born, it is counter intuitive to think nature would intentionally create a weakness in us to prevent us from reaching our full potential. It would be a waste of energy and resources and I do not think nature would waste it. Life is veracious and wants to be in as many environments as it can grow in.

I also don't see nature pushing people to be the best thinkers. — Coben

Survival is based on the decisions we all make. That takes intelligence which depends on the quality of our thinking. Some think better or faster than others. To think fittest, in a thinking animal, would not include thinking fitness is counter intuitive. This is bolstered by your desire and mine to educate our children to as high a level as we can.

Nature is working with each individual to insure they are the fittest homo sapien? I don't see this. Many seem content with less than being fittest, some content with not being fit at all. — Coben

We all eventually accept our fate and for a less fit organism to continue to compete would only cause it harm and that is why sheeple become sheeple. In our hierarchical tribal systems, there is only room for the few at the top and the many just line up behind them for security, which is our selfish gene's reason for being, along with reproduction.

The nature you see us as pushing us to be the fittest. what is this nature? What are you referring to? — Coben

Our nature is under discussion but the traits ours has are not unique to us. They are universal. It is only because of our intelligence that we can understand the workings of it as much as we do. Then again, there is nothing that says that other animals are not aware of how their instincts work. They just can't tell us how intelligent they are. They show us that though all the time.

Regards
DL