• Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?

    Nothing that I know of, other than personal renderings or hear say, has ever been produced or provide to show the existence of a supernatural realm or entities. The ancients did not seem to think the supernatural was a reality. https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

    No entity, good or evil, have ever manifested itself in a provable way, even though some think god is Omni-present and that Satan was given the ability and power to deceive us all.

    I think that those who believe in supernatural entities are being taken advantage of by fraudulent preachers who recognize our propensity of over imagination, which we all have, as shown in the Princess Alice experiments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWx_uVDh4Cw

    I can see some benefits in imaginary thinking to validate or refute ideas but that is about it.

    Is belief or faith in the supernatural a worthy idea for us or is it a tool used by lying preachers intent on fleecing sheeple?

    If there is no supernatural god, should we not seek a human leader or spiritual guide instead of idolizing imaginary supernatural gods that are demonstrably less moral than humans?

    Regards
    DL

  • tim wood
    9.2k
    Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?Gnostic Christian Bishop
    No.
  • Izat So
    92
    You ask
    Is belief or faith in the supernatural a worthy idea for us or is it a tool used by lying preachers intent on fleecing sheeple?

    Neither. Except perhaps in the case of the fleecing of the flock by those American consumerist mega churches. But not because science has all possible ontology completely sussed. How could it?

    But for two related reasons:
    • The historical origins of religious narratives in the context of the geological timeline makes us aware they are a cultural artifact
    • Beliefs that help human societies thrive emerge to justify the type of social organization necessary given a certain level of technological development. In a global economy where women’s work in the home has largely been outsourced or made redundant by manufacturing and medical technology (food, clothing, the pill), we need a new story. One that doesn’t preserve closer-to-God hierarchy or a cosmic patriarchy.
  • Brett
    3k
    Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?
    — Gnostic Christian Bishop
    No.
    tim wood

    Why do you say so?
  • Theologian
    160

    When one takes into account the amount of intelligence that has been invested in attempts to prove the existence of God, it is hard to answer entirely in the negative.

    But of course, that is a completely different thing from believing that their arguments are valid, or their conclusions true. Extremely intelligent people can be quite delusional. Or simply wrong.

    Belief may be a sucker's game. But intelligence on its own does not grant immunity to it.
  • Matias
    85
    Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?

    If you assume that religious belief is the game of the stupid, you are mistaken. Some of the brightest minds of humanity are and have been religious, not only in the way Albert Einstein embrazed Spinozism, whichis not really a religion. All those men who invented "science" during the early modern period where believers too, some more, some less, but none of them was an atheist or naturalist
  • Pattern-chaser
    1.8k
    Is belief or faith in the supernatural a worthy idea for us or is it a tool used by lying preachers intent on fleecing sheeple?Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Anything that helps us to deal with the real world is a worthy idea, I think. I find my beliefs form a sort of scaffold on which to assemble my own personal mental model of the world, to hold and connect my ideas and beliefs. And of course, any worthy idea could potentially be used to fleece the unwary. I don't think that supports or takes away from the idea itself, do you?
  • Anthony
    197
    Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?Gnostic Christian Bishop
    People believe in all kinds of things which wouldn't exist apart from the belief. Justified, true, belief=knowledge. How much of what makes the anthropocentric world turn has no seat in anything but belief? Humans are untrue beings as they revolve around constructions impossible to have knowledge of. When enough people believe the same thing to be so, it is so (becomes same as gravity)...even if it isn't so in the extrahuman world. Social constructions are similar to the supernatural in this way. Money is ghosts. The content hardly matters when the content is belief in something that doesn't exist.

    It's wise to be a cynic toward shared beliefs rooted in impossible knowledge. Where this is the case - shared belief in something that has no existence - it is wise to go ahead and have your own individual esoteric beliefs no one else may agree with. Where the esoteric is made exoteric, and enough people believe in the same fantasy, mass hysteria and disorder is usually following close in the wake.
  • yupamiralda
    88
    Why do people assume the supernatural, or gods, or whatever, should conform to our all-too-human ideas about morality? If religion is a cultural artifact, morality certainly is. Is there not room anymore in the enlightened human mind to see something as amoral as badgers eating baby bunnies as the signature of a god?
  • Matias
    85
    Humans are untrue beings as they revolve around constructions impossible to have knowledge of. When enough people believe the same thing to be so, it is so (becomes same as gravity)...even if it isn't so in the extrahuman world. Social constructions are similar to the supernatural in this way. Money is ghosts.Anthony

    Well put!
    That reminds me of one of the central ideas in the work of Yuval Harari:

    "We are repeatedly told these days that we are living in a new and frightening era of “post-truth”, and that lies and fictions are all around us. Examples are not hard to come by.

    In fact, humans have always lived in the age of post-truth. Homo sapiens is a post-truth species, whose power depends on creating and believing fictions. Ever since the stone age, self-reinforcing myths have served to unite human collectives. Indeed, Homo sapiens conquered this planet thanks above all to the unique human ability to create and spread fictions.
    We are the only mammals that can cooperate with numerous strangers because only we can invent fictional stories, spread them around, and convince millions of others to believe in them. As long as everybody believes in the same fictions, we all obey the same laws, and can thereby cooperate effectively.

    So if you blame Facebook, Trump or Putin for ushering in a new and frightening era of post-truth, remind yourself that centuries ago millions of Christians locked themselves inside a self-reinforcing mythological bubble, never daring to question the factual veracity of the Bible, while millions of Muslims put their unquestioning faith in the Qur’an. For millennia, much of what passed for “news” and “facts” in human social networks were stories about miracles, angels, demons and witches. We have zero scientific evidence that Eve was tempted by the serpent, that the souls of all infidels burn in hell after they die, or that the creator of the universe doesn’t like it when a Brahmin marries an Untouchable – yet billions of people have believed in these stories for thousands of years. Some fake news lasts for ever.

    When a thousand people believe some made-up story for one month, that’s fake news. When a billion people believe it for a thousand years, that’s a religion. But I am not denying the effectiveness or potential benevolence of religion. Just the opposite. For better or worse, fiction is among the most effective tools in humanity’s toolkit. By bringing people together, religious creeds make large-scale human cooperation possible. They inspire people to build hospitals, schools and bridges in addition to armies and prisons. Adam and Eve never existed, but Chartres Cathedral is still beautiful. Much of the Bible may be fictional, but it can still bring joy to billions and encourage humans to be compassionate, courageous and creative."

    (in: Yuval Noah Harari: "Lessons for the 21th century"
  • tim wood
    9.2k
    Why do you say so?Brett

    Would you like to give me a $100 for any supernatural being I claim to believe in? Would you like to give me $100 for any supernatural being I believe in for cause, which cause I can present as conclusive evidence?

    My guess in the first case no, the second yes.
  • BC
    13.5k
    Never mind supernatural beings. Maybe @Brett will give me $100 for some new plastic flooring in the bathroom.
  • Brett
    3k


    So your answer is a fool and his money are easily parted.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    we need a new story. One that doesn’t preserve closer-to-God hierarchy or a cosmic patriarchy.Izat So

    I agree.

    They should go Gnostic and seek god their god within.

    https://imgur.com/9eoBEyo

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    But intelligence on its own does not grant immunity to it.Theologian

    I agree, given that the main reason for joining a religion is insecurity, our tribal natures and need of fellowship.

    I do not mind people appeasing their natures but to lie to oneself in doing so is not intelligent or moral, in the case of our vile mainstream gods.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    but none of them was an atheist or naturalistMatias

    I disagree. In much of the time you see, to admit to atheism meant death.

    The inquisitors and jihadists have been around a long time.

    Regards
    DL
    If you assume that religious belief is the game of the stupid, you are mistaken.Matias

    I would be if I said that, I agree.

    It is the supernatural aspect of belief that I find stupid.
    It is all speculative nonsense as no information on the supernatural can be known or shown.

    Do you disagreeing with that?

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    I find my beliefs form a sort of scaffold on which to assemble my own personal mental model of the world,Pattern-chaser

    I think we all do that and that is why it is important to have ones thinking in reality instead of fiction or the supernatural. If you use junk members in your scaffold, it is not safe.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    It's wise to be a cynic toward shared beliefs rooted in impossible knowledge.Anthony

    I agree and that is why I see the opposite as evil.

    I also agree that our beliefs are what we base reality on and that is why I dislike the notion of peole living in delusional states based on some preachers lies.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    Why do people assume the supernatural, or gods, or whatever, should conform to our all-too-human ideas about morality?yupamiralda

    Because if they do not, they are inferior and not worthy of us.

    Secular law has already shown it superiority to theistic law and morality and if our gods cannot conform to that better morality they should be condemned.

    To not do so has us ending todays with homophobic and misogynous inquisition and jihad using inferior religions.

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    So your answer is a fool and his money are easily parted.Brett

    It would be nice if it was only the fools money, but non-believing tax payers have to make up the billion dollar short fall that religious tax exemptions create.

    Believer or not, you are paying for lying clergy to continue lying.

    Regards
    DL
  • Pattern-chaser
    1.8k
    I think we all do that and that is why it is important to have ones thinking in reality instead of fiction or the supernatural. If you use junk members in your scaffold, it is not safe.Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Life, the universe and everything aren't "safe". We base our thinking on speculation and the like because there's nothing more concrete available. If you think you know stuff - really know stuff - then you are very lucky ... or more likely, deluded. Much of "reality" is unknown and unknowable to us. Sometimes it's fiction or nothing.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    Much of "reality" is unknown and unknowable to us.Pattern-chaser

    Science would disagree.

    To not at least stick to what can be known, and think what cannot be known is real, would be people giving up logic and reason for fantasy.

    I do not see that as a good idea.

    Regards
    DL
  • Pattern-chaser
    1.8k
    To not at least stick to what can be known, and think what cannot be known is real, would be people giving up logic and reason for fantasy.Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Where logic and reason have no useful effect, what choice have we but to look elsewhere, maybe to fantasy? You talk blithely about sticking to what we know, but that is itself a difficult area. Adopting the perspective of Objectivism - a school of thought I find to be a pointless waste of time, personally - we know only that Objective Reality exists, and (maybe) that we are all or part of it. We know nothing else at all, to Objective standards. It depends how rigorous you want your thinking to be.

    These questions cannot be answered by science. If you want to assume that the world your senses show you pictures of is Objective Reality, I can't stop you. But you have already embarked on a fantasy voyage, and your claims to knowledge are less than they seem. And yet science does what it can, and what it must. The 'reality' our senses show us is the only one we have access to. So we pretend it's real and certain ... and we could be right. But we cannot demonstrate this. We assume it, maybe as one or more axioms, but we don't know it. Your talk of knowing stuff is, at least in part, fantasy. A necessary, common-sense, fantasy, given our position, but fantasy nonetheless.
  • Brett
    3k
    It would be nice if it was only the fools money, but non-believing tax payers have to make up the billion dollar short fall that religious tax exemptions create.

    Believer or not, you are paying for lying clergy to continue lying.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    I don’t see what this has to do with individuals believing in something other than the material world.
  • deletedusercb
    1.7k
    Much of "reality" is unknown and unknowable to us.
    — Pattern-chaser

    Science would disagree.
    Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Science cannot agree or disagree. People can. Scientists recently discovered that most of the matter and energy in the universe they had been completely unaware of. Noticing this, it would be a logical conclusion that perhaps we will keep discovering more things, but perhaps some things will not be found out. Perhaps most will not be. Perhaps most will be. Pattern chaser's claim above is problematic because how would he know. But your response is eqully problematic since you cannot know whether we will find out most things. Perhaps scientists will find a way to prove there is a multiverse but not be able to learn more about the other universes, which would be most of what is, for example.
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    A necessary, common-sense, fantasy, given our position, but fantasy nonetheless.Pattern-chaser

    True that reality is a collective hunch.

    Still better to not add to the objective reality by adding a fantasy that one must believe in to be saved.

    Do you need saving and what did you do to be condemned?

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    I don’t see what this has to do with individuals believing in something other than the material world.Brett

    Their belief is costing you your hard earned dollars.
    Do you like to pay for someone else's fantasy?

    Regards
    DL
  • Gnostic Christian Bishop
    1.4k
    But your response is equally problematic since you cannot know whether we will find out most things.Coben

    We have no idea how close we are, knowledge wise, to all that can be known and what can be done.

    Speculative nonsense is all we can have of what we do not know, especially of the supernatural.

    Regards
    DL
  • Pattern-chaser
    1.8k
    Do you need saving and what did you do to be condemned?Gnostic Christian Bishop

    No. Like Josef K., I don't know.

    True that reality is a collective hunch. Still better to not add to the objective reality by adding a fantasy that one must believe in to be saved.Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Better still to recognise the truth of your first sentence. If you apply it to the second, you may see that you can't recognise a fantasy, nor tell fantasy from 'reality'. That is my point.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.