Just say you've got no proof, wuss. :shade:

Two...I do not give a rat's ass what you venture to call it. — Frank Apisa

Oooweee...someone is testes. :yikes:

Belief is necessary for knowledge. It's basic epistemology.

Merkwurdichliebe
1.1k

Two...I do not give a rat's ass what you venture to call it. — Frank Apisa


Oooweee...someone is testes. :yikes: — Merkwurdichliebe

That was funny...although it would have been a lot funnier if you had proofed it before posting.

Belief is necessary for knowledge. It's basic epistemology. — Hanover

Belief is constituted by our pressuppositions. For everything we know, there are things we pressuppose.

"Beliefs" in religion...

...are nothing more than blind guesses being disguised.

I "believe" in God"...is nothing but a blind guess about the unknown REALITY.

I "believe" there are no gods...is nothing but a blind guess about the unknown REALITY.

I "believe" "God" is please with this and is offended by that...is nothing but a blind guess about the unknown REALITY.

Yeah, that is what I said. It is a guess. That is what a presupposition is. — Frank Apisa

No. They are not the same. A clue is in the words: "presupposition," "guess." If you spell them out you can see they are not the same words. If that's a problem, at least you can see that one is longer than the other, has more letters. I'll make it even more conspicuous. To a Christian, God is an absolute presupposition of his beliefs. His creed starts, "We believe..,". See that? Ab-so-lute pre-sup-po-si-tion. Way longer than "guess." And zero reason to confuse the two.

I "believe" in God"...is nothing but a blind guess about the unknown REALITY.

I "believe" there are no gods...is nothing but a blind guess about the unknown REALITY. — Frank Apisa

Yeah, those two sentences are blind guesses - your own.

Anyone who hasn't seen their Great-great-grandfather, believes they have this unknown to them grandfather.
Are those people blindly guessing?

tim wood
2.4k

Yeah, that is what I said. It is a guess. That is what a presupposition is. — Frank Apisa


No. They are not the same. A clue is in the words: "presupposition," "guess." If you spell them out you can see they are not the same words. If that's a problem, at least you can see that one is longer than the other, has more letters. I'll make it even more conspicuous. To a Christian, God is an absolute presupposition of his beliefs. His creed starts, "We believe..,". See that? Ab-so-lute pre-sup-po-si-tion. Way longer than "guess." And zero reason to confuse the two. — tim wood

It is a guess...a blind guess.

And "faith" is the absurd insistence that it is correct no matter what.

Shamshir
281

I "believe" in God"...is nothing but a blind guess about the unknown REALITY.

I "believe" there are no gods...is nothing but a blind guess about the unknown REALITY. — Frank Apisa

Yeah, those two sentences are blind guesses - your own.

Anyone who hasn't seen their Great-great-grandfather, believes they have this unknown to them grandfather.
Are those people blindly guessing? — Shamshir

Anyone with a brain KNOWS they had a great, great grandfather. They KNOW they their great, great, grandfather also had a great, great grandfather.

This is supposed to be a forum devoted to philosophy. Once in a while people like you ought to act like it is.

Anyone with a brain KNOWS they had a great, great grandfather. They KNOW they their great, great, grandfather also had a great, great grandfather. — Frank Apisa

By the same logic anyone may KNOW there is a God.

Shamshir
282

Anyone with a brain KNOWS they had a great, great grandfather. They KNOW they their great, great, grandfather also had a great, great grandfather. — Frank Apisa

By the same logic anyone may KNOW there is a God. — Shamshir

No...they cannot.

But it requires a functioning brain to see the difference...so you are at a major disadvantage here.

No...they cannot. — Frank Apisa

Because? Both are unknown.

Shamshir
283

No...they cannot. — Frank Apisa

Because? Both are unknown. — Shamshir

One is unknown. There may or may not be a GOD.

But every goddam person who has ever lived has had a father...which means everyone's father has had a father...which means everyone who has had a father has had a grandfather. And the grandfather has had a father...and that father has had a father...which means that every one has had a father, a grandfather, a great grandfather, and a great, great grandfather.

Going further back in that chain is probably beyond you...so try not to hurt yourself thinking about it.

Ask one of the older kids in the playground. They might be able to get through to you.

One is unknown. There may or may not be a GOD — Frank Apisa

Both are unknown. There may or may not be a Great-great-grandfather.

But every goddam person who has ever lived has had a father...which means everyone's father has had a father...which means everyone who has had a father has had a grandfather. And the grandfather has had a father...and that father has had a father...which means that every one has had a father, a grandfather, a great grandfather, and a great, great grandfather. — Frank Apisa

And going back far enough, your progenitor did not only believe in God but was created by God.

Are you going to tell your progenitor he's wrong?
Go ahead. :yum:

Shamshir
283

One is unknown. There may or may not be a GOD — Frank Apisa

Both are unknown. There may or may not be a Great-great-grandfather. — Shamshir

You actually are arguing that you may NOT HAVE A GREAT, GREAT GRANDFATHER?????

Apparently I am talking with someone who should stick to the playground sandbox.

But every goddam person who has ever lived has had a father...which means everyone's father has had a father...which means everyone who has had a father has had a grandfather. And the grandfather has had a father...and that father has had a father...which means that every one has had a father, a grandfather, a great grandfather, and a great, great grandfather. — Frank Apisa

And going back far enough, your progenitor did not only believe in God but was created by God. — shamshir

Go back to the sandbox.

Are you going to tell your progenitor he's wrong?
Go ahead. :yum:

The sandbox.

It is a guess...a blind guess.
And "faith" is the absurd insistence that it is correct no matter what. — Frank Apisa

Ok. There are things called presuppositions. Of those, some are so-called absolute presuppositions (APs). As such, they have nothing to do with guesses. They are not guesses. To confuse the two is just a lack of information/knowledge. But now you have that knowledge - you've been told. From this moment on your claim isn't mere ignorance, the condition of us all, but stupidity.

What presuppositions and absolute presuppositions are is just a little bit tricky because articulated, they're propositions, and as propositions they're not appearing as what they are (which is presuppositions), which leads to your kind of confusion. That is, a presupposition is something that is presupposed. An absolute presupposition is absolutely presupposed. For the purposes of this thread, this simply means that Christians don't ask if God exists. Period. Non-Christians certainly can, but their question goes to existence, which answer to - or speculation on - the question of existence is simply irrelevant to a Christian because it is always already a presupposition of his faith and thinking.

To be sure, Christians are perfectly capable of asking about, questioning, the existence of their Christian God, But to the degree that they're Christians who comprehend their religion, they know it's a no-sense question. To the degree they think the question is of any relevance, to that degree they're not Christian. By this understanding it should be clear that many people who call themselves Christians, aren't really Christians. Or they are, but seriously confused.

I assume this holds for other religions as well and not just Christianity.

As to presuppositions and absolute presuppositions, just stop and think for a moment how many are a part of your life and thinking even minute-by-minute. Most of them are so trivial they're hardly worth calling up and articulating. But if you work at it, You'll find more than you know what to do with.

A very readable exposition can be found in An Essay on Metaphysics, R. G., Collingwood.

Better to live in a desert sandbox
than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife Frank.
Proverbs 21:19 :cool:

Unfortunately, christine has not been back since the day she posted this, so it is not possible to discuss what is at issue for her.

Instead we find once again Frank Apisa demonstrating his belief in the importance of his informing us that he "does not do believing". He fails to understand either the etiology or function of belief. He is steadfast in his belief that the alternatives are we either know or blindly guess. This is his cage, one he cannot see that he is in. One he blindly guesses he is not in.

tim wood
2.4k

It is a guess...a blind guess.
And "faith" is the absurd insistence that it is correct no matter what. — Frank Apisa

Ok. There are things called presuppositions. Of those, some are so-called absolute presuppositions (APs). As such, they have nothing to do with guesses. They are not guesses. To confuse the two is just a lack of information/knowledge. But now you have that knowledge - you've been told. From this moment on your claim isn't mere ignorance, the condition of us all, but stupidity.

What presuppositions and absolute presuppositions are is just a little bit tricky because articulated, they're propositions, and as propositions they're not appearing as what they are (which is presuppositions), which leads to your kind of confusion. That is, a presupposition is something that is presupposed. An absolute presupposition is absolutely presupposed. For the purposes of this thread, this simply means that Christians don't ask if God exists. Period. Non-Christians certainly can, but their question goes to existence, which answer to - or speculation on - the question of existence is simply irrelevant to a Christian because it is always already a presupposition of his faith and thinking.

To be sure, Christians are perfectly capable of asking about, questioning, the existence of their Christian God, But to the degree that they're Christians who comprehend their religion, they know it's a no-sense question. To the degree they think the question is of any relevance, to that degree they're not Christian. By this understanding it should be clear that many people who call themselves Christians, aren't really Christians. Or they are, but seriously confused.

I assume this holds for other religions as well and not just Christianity.

As to presuppositions and absolute presuppositions, just stop and think for a moment how many are a part of your life and thinking even minute-by-minute. Most of them are so trivial they're hardly worth calling up and articulating. But if you work at it, You'll find more than you know what to do with.

A very readable exposition can be found in An Essay on Metaphysics, R. G., Collingwood. — tim wood

This is about confusion on religion, Tim.

EVERY comment on the "tenets" of EVERY religion...is a blind guess about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

Some people are simply going to refuse to acknowledge this...including people who argue FOR the existence of gods and those who argue AGAINST the existence of any gods.

That is something we all have to accept...and I now accept you are one of those people.

Shamshir
290
↪Frank Apisa
Better to live in a desert sandbox
than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife Frank.
Proverbs 21:19 :cool: — Shamshir

Sorry your marital situation is so bad, Shamshir.

You are pathetic...and are unsuited for a philosophical discussion. — Frank Apisa

I assume you fail to see the irony! Believing (or guessing) that repeating the same thing and petulantly crying "You are pathetic" is a suitable example of philosophical discussion.

Fooloso4
506

You are pathetic...and are unsuited for a philosophical discussion. — Frank Apisa


I assume you fail to see the irony! Believing (or guessing) that repeating the same thing and petulantly crying "You are pathetic" is a suitable example of philosophical discussion. — Fooloso4

You assume wrong...I actually see the irony.

I intentionally did what I did.

You are an insult to philosophic considerations...because you do not grok such a thing.

Now...go away and do more blind guessing...and then pretend it is not blind guessing by calling it "believing."

Frank, it is because I actually have an interest in philosophical discussion that I am not going to sink to your level. You have dug yourself into a hole and with every effort to extricate yourself you sink lower and lower. It is not just your failure to understand what the term 'believe' means but your philosophical and emotional immaturity. Happy to do my part to make that evident to anyone here who is not already aware of it.

Fooloso4
507
↪Frank Apisa


Frank, it is because I actually have an interest in philosophical discussion that I am not going to sink to your level. You have dug yourself into a hole and with every effort to extricate yourself you sink lower and lower. It is not just your failure to understand what the term 'believe' means but your philosophical and emotional immaturity. Happy to do my part to make that evident to anyone here who is not already aware of it. — Fooloso4

You would need to climb a ladder to get "to my level", Fool. But nice try at attempting to get to where you think I am...after pretending you would not do it.

I know what "believe" means...and I know how it is used. In conversations about religion...which is what this is. "Believe" is a word used to disguise a blind guess.

You cannot refute it...so you attempt this bullshit. But you are a waif here.

"I 'believe' (in) God"...IS NOTHING BUT A BLIND GUESS BEING DISGUISED.

"I 'believe' there are no gods"...IS NOTHING BUT A BLIND GUESS BEING DISGUISED.

"I 'believe' it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one"...IS NOTHING BUT A BLIND GUESS BEING DISGUISED.

I hope you finally get that!

I hope it doesn't happen when you are repairing a roof or trimming the top of a tree...because when it hits you it is going to kick your ass harder than it has ever been kicked. Don't want you hurting yourself discovering a truth you should be getting right here.

Optimism! How adorable! I love it! Even at the end, you make me laugh. I'm lying. That wasn't funny at all.

Frank you really are a child! Repeating the same thing over and over again, putting it in ALL CAPS, throwing tantrums and stomping your feet, none of it changes the vacuousness of your claim.

Shamshir
292
↪Frank Apisa
Optimism! How adorable! I love it! Even at the end, you make me laugh. I'm lying. That wasn't funny at all. — Shamshir

Okay...then I am not sorry your marital situation is so bad.

Fooloso4
508
↪Frank Apisa


Frank you really are a child! — Fooloso4

No...at 82 (83 in August)...I am far from a child.

Repeating the same thing over and over again, putting it in ALL CAPS, throwing tantrums and stomping your feet, none of it changes the vacuousness of your claim.

There is nothing vacuous about any of my comments or claims.

I understand that you are not yet up to speed...and cannot fully appreciate what I am saying or the value of it. Perhaps some day you will get there...or you may remain the fool you use for the pretension: Fooloso4.

Up to you. Good stuff being thrown your way. Make some use of it rather than indulging your anger.

I run the Fo'c's'le, a boarding house for sailors. Sorry, I reserve my beds for seamen.