Experience, beauty and art.

Brett

When I go for a swim in the morning and the water is glassy, very clear, the sun reflects off the waves, the offshore breeze catches the spray off the waves, I’m in the water, there’s no rip, everything looks beautiful.

I wonder what it is that makes it beautiful to look at: the colours, my feelings, the sensations?

The next day the sky is overcast, the water’s dull, I think about sharks, there’s a slight undertow, no offshore breeze, a wind rippling the surface, and it no longer looks beautiful.

Was it beautiful the previous day because of the way it looked and how I felt, or was it because it was good, as in non threatening? So I’m inclined to think that beautiful is something good, but I know that won’t work. Sometimes I’ve watched videos of men at war in Vietnam and there have been moments when I considered what I was watching as beautiful.

Secondly, why do I have the desire to capture that moment on the beach in memory even as I experience it, and to then remake it in some art form?

RegularGuy

↪Brett

Reminds me of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. What happens to the quality of a song that has been listened to a zillion times? If it was good the first time, then why was it not so good the zillionth time?

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

Yes, if it’s that good then isn’t it always good and so in a way the song’s lost us.

RegularGuy

↪Brett

Well, the saying “familiarity breeds contempt” came from somewhere. Perhaps we don’t find ordinary things so beautiful?

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

You’ve opened a can of worms there. What’s ordinary? Is sun, sand and water ordinary?

RegularGuy

↪Brett

I was referring to experiences. If you had the Mona Lisa hanging on your living room wall for ten years, would it have the same quality on the tenth year as the first day? Likewise, sunsets are considered beautiful by many. If the sun was always on the horizon, would it be a big deal?

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

I swim almost every day and that experience of beauty, on those days, has never changed. By ordinary I meant the sun, sea and sand was about as elemental as you could get. Of course it could be a perfect combination. But still, why beautiful?

RegularGuy

↪Brett

Suppose that ideal combination occurred every day?

RegularGuy

But what about that ideal combination makes it beautiful to you? You prefer it somehow. However, if that experience of that perfect combination became ordinary, then you might no longer prefer it. Do you agree?

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

Yes, I see what you mean, because even at the beach I have, as I said, non days, which makes the good days special. So is beauty a rarity, or less common anyway?

RegularGuy

↪Brett

I think something has to be less common in order for people to see beauty in it, yes.

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

I’m not sure if being rare or less common works towards beauty. I think there must be things we only occasionally see that are truly horrible.

RegularGuy

↪Brett

I think aesthetics are all preferences really. Many people agree on certain beautiful things, but this doesn’t imply objective beauty. We just have certain things in common. Many people would agree with me that Van Gogh’s Cafe de Nuit is beautiful, but those same people might disagree with me that Anne Hathaway is beautiful.

RegularGuy

I’m not sure if being rare or less common works towards beauty. I think there must be things we only occasionally see that are truly horrible. — Brett

I think rarity is a necessary condition of beauty. I think horrible things can be rare or ordinary.

RegularGuy

↪Brett

You might still prefer that certain combination of sun, sand, and sea; but if it became ordinary it would somehow lose value to you. No?

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

I was going to say that I’ve seen some powerful storms I thought beautiful, but then I thought, maybe beauty isn’t what I was experiencing, just something similar.

I think horrible things can be rare or ordinary. — Noah Te Stroete

But not beautiful because of that.

Brett

You might still prefer that certain combination of sun, sand, and sea; but if it became ordinary it would somehow lose value to you. No? — Noah Te Stroete

Yes, there have been moments at certain locations, which I remember experiencing as beautiful, that no longer had that impact on me.

RegularGuy

I was going to say that I’ve seen some powerful storms I thought beautiful, but then I thought, maybe beauty isn’t what I was experiencing, just something similar. — Brett

Have you ever seen the movie, American Beauty? The drug dealing teenager with the Army dad found beauty in ordinary things, even macabre things. Maybe it’s a matter of seeing things with “fresh” eyes/perspective?

Brett

I think aesthetics are all preferences really. Many people agree on certain beautiful things, but this doesn’t imply objective beauty. We just have certain things in common. Many people would agree with me that Van Gogh’s Cafe de Nuit is beautiful, but those same people might disagree with me that Anne Hathaway is beautiful. — Noah Te Stroete

Yes, however, I ve got a bit side tracked, because I was trying to establish why “I” thought the beach was beautiful that day, when it was the same place I no longer thought beautiful on the overcast day. And is “goodness” attached to beauty?

Edit: the beach was no longer beautiful on the bad day.

RegularGuy

Yes, however, I ve got a bit side tracked, because I was trying to establish why “I” thought the beach was beautiful that day, when it was the same place I no longer thought beautiful on the overcast day. — Brett

Perhaps it WAS that ideal combination of circumstances that you prefer that hasn’t gotten old yet?

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

Yes, that’s a good point. Sorry to this, but what is ideal, why is it individually ideal?

RegularGuy

↪Brett

Perhaps your unique psychology and how you’ve come to attribute good feelings to certain things over the course of your life? If for example, you almost drowned on that very beach where your loved one was also murdered (sorry), then you might have a different psychological preference. Am I getting warm?

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

Yes, memory is good. I’ll think about that.

RegularGuy

↪Brett

Your method of asking the right questions was helpful in this dialogue. I wish more people had that skill.

Brett

↪Noah Te Stroete

Yes, I wish it was more like that, too.

Experience, beauty and art.

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Categories

More Discussions