• unenlightened
    8.7k
    I must start by saying that my qualifications and authority on this topic amount to as near absolute zero as can be measured.

    The I Ching is possibly over 5,000 years old. Makes Plato look recent. Translations from Chinese are wildly varied, and the this text consists of a series of gnomic aphorisms along with a highly variable collection commentaries on them, and commentaries on commentaries, of varying age and authority. I have even come across at least one complete rewrite from 'first principles'. In fact we are not dealing with one book at all; just as Western philosophy is said to be footnotes to Plato, so Chinese philosophy including Daoist and Confucian may be seen as footnotes to the I Ching. Commentaries develop it in the direction of politics, or psychology or ecology, or spirituality.

    So feel free to use and link other variants, but here is a reputable if old fashioned translation to get you started. It is quite nice as a digitised document, because there are many reasonable orderings, and it is not something that one should really try and read the way one would read most philosophy books; it is highly ordered, but the order is not linear.

    And here is Wilhelm's introduction, also worth a look. And now to philosophicate.

    This oldest of digital worlds is in one sense very familiar, 0 & 1; male and female, and in another very strange indeed. Familiar, because there is a binary system of notation with positional significance. But strange, because it is not about substance but process. What is identified is never really a thing, but always a modality of change.
    'Yin' (in Chinese philosophy) the passive female principle of the universe, characterized as female and sustaining and associated with earth, dark, and cold. from Chinese yīn ‘feminine’, ‘moon’, ‘shade’.

    So definitions like this can be very misleading. Think of yin and yang as the endpoints of a pendulum, and then the 'essence' of 'the feminine' is its becoming male; because there is no other way to go.

    Likewise, each hexagram, in its identity is a limit of movement in a particular direction, but because there are six possible individual changes, it is a limit in six dimensions, such that six 'changes' (of direction) are possible, and that's without considering that more than one aspect can be changing at once.

    So we are considering a classification of dynamics, of where we're at rather than what we are. The times they are a-changing, and if you can classify the dynamics of your situation, you can make predictions, and better decisions. And that aspect of the I Ching is fairly central. Very often, one is told what the sage does when the times are thus, and what the sage does at on time can be very different if not opposite to what the sage does at another. Wisdom is also dynamic. This is in one sense trivial - at night the sage goes to bed, and in the morning the sage gets up, sort of thing. But it is also pragmatic in the way that western science is pragmatic: true iff useful.

    What is most disconcerting in all this is that there is an inversion at a fundamental level. Everything seems horribly wooly; everything is metaphorical, as if the world entirely consists of zeitgeists. What the West regards as historical accident, is here the basic principle of being and order.

    And yet, our physics, starting in a very different place also arrives in the end at a sort of process ontology of vibrations and probability. and I am by no means the only person to have made a connection between Eastern philosophy and Western physics.

    I don't know where you are, dear reader. Are you already familiar with the I Ching, or is it all new? If it is new to you, I think you would do well to begin, with an experimental scepticism, to question the book as oracle, by way of practicing your open-mindedness, and familiarising yourself with the range and form of the texts. I have no expectation that you will come to believe in magic!

    What I am more interested in is how an ancient way of thinking might shed a new light on our own concerns as philosophers of the West.

    Phaedrus’ mistake, in my view, was that he placed Quality before everything, but he failed to understand that access to the contents of the mythos is enhanced by dialectic—essentially, the means to destroy the former divisions and create something better are already part of the mythos. I.e., Quality is primary because it is primary for the mythos. The ability of Aristotle to differentiate between science and dialectic is a refinement in the process of seeking truth, not a destruction of it.
    https://archivehumanitas.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/ah.-a-critical-reading-of-r.p.-1-3.pdf

    Again, if you haven't read Pirsig as well as I Ching, this will mean very little,But if you have, the linked article is worth a read. The I Ching is a work of the mythos, for all its analytical form, and Pirsig is very familiar with Eastern philosophy. If you have followed my previous, you will be familiar with the distinctive domains of physical, social and psychological, and in the West, these amount to more or less separate disciplines that are almost a priori, transcendental conditions of existence. The I Ching will have none of it! Always, it is the dynamics of a relationship and interplay between subject society and world such that the same condition infects them all. to make these analytical logos distinctions is to insist on not seeing the whole picture, 'therefore the sage does not do it.' You are the sage, because otherwise you would be the inferior man, and we don't want his input, do we?

    Ok, I have rambled, I have linked, and if I have made a new connection for you somewhere, well tell me something interesting!
  • frank
    14.6k
    I don't know where you are, dear reader. Are you already familiar with the I Ching, or is it all new? If it is new to you, I think you would do well to begin, with an experimental scepticism, to question the book as oracle, by way of practicing your open-mindedness, and familiarising yourself with the range and form of the texts. I have no expectation that you will come to believe in magic!unenlightened

    It has a reputation for hitting the nail on the head. I had that experience with it. I have ideas about how it works, but who cares?
  • Ying
    397
    I must start by saying that my qualifications and authority on this topic amount to as near absolute zero as can be measured.unenlightened

    I'm fairly knowledgeable about the "I Ching"... :)

    The I Ching is possibly over 5,000 years old. Makes Plato look recent.

    The origination of the "I Ching" is generally attributed to Fuxi, a mythical figure from the dawn of Chinese civilization. The arrangement of the hexagrams into the specific sequence we know of is attributed to King Wen, and is called the "King Wen sequence". The duke of Zhou wrote the commentaries on the lines, and what's known as the "Wings" is attributed to Confucius. I think it's more fair to state that the "I Ching" we know of was an ongoing project, rather than a singular act of creation by some specific individual.

    Ok, I have rambled, I have linked, and if I have made a new connection for you somewhere, well tell me something interesting!

    OK, sure. :)

    The "I Ching" operates within a rather specific cosmology:

    wu-ji-tai-ji-10-000.gif
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuji_(philosophy)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiji_(philosophy)

    Most, if not all of classical Chinese philosophy operates within said cosmology and employs the terminology of the "I Ching". Another key text in understanding classical Chinese philosophy is the "Shang Shu" (much more boring to read than the "I Ching" in my opinion. You also don't get to play the oracle game with that text). Note that Heaven (Ch'ien) is represented by the singular unbroken line under the yin/yang symbol in the diagram I posted earlier. Earth (K'un) is represented by the broken line next to it. The emptiness spoken of in daoism doesn't really pertain to what's written in the "I Ching", even though the text does hold a central place in daoist thinking (both philosophical and religious). Daoist thinking is more closely linked to the concept of Wuji in that regard.

    A great text in understanding the philosophy behind the "I Ching" is called the "Ta Chuan", or "great appendix". It outlines the actual usage of the "I Ching", beyond a mere oracle book. It explains how the "I Ching" can be used to find the way of least resistance in life, to learn how to act in accordance with the will of Heaven and not act in opposition to this, so to speak:

    "With the attainment of such ease and such freedom of laborious effort, the mastery is got of all principles under the sky. With the attainment of that mastery, the sage finds his position in the middle between heaven and earth."
    -"Ta Chuan" section 1, ch. 1, paragraph 8.

    Some, links:
    http://www.mindsports.nl/index.php/i-ching-connexion/appendices/298-ta-chuan-section-1?showall=1
    http://www.mindsports.nl/index.php/i-ching-connexion/appendices/299-ta-chuan-section-2?showall=1
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    Thanks for that, interesting links that I need to spend some time with, and a very useful cosmology. I have lived with this in the background as I have lived with a Christian cosmology in the background, along with scientific materialist, and so on. So I am always wanting if not a reconciliation, at least a translation, an understanding of one in terms of the other. What I am trying to do is to get some idea of the status of the various elements in relation to the philosophical language more familiar here. There seems to be an affinity with Pythagorean ideas of cosmic vibration and so on, and also with Platonic forms, but without the separation of ideal from the tangible.

    Something new to me already is the sense that 'the ten thousand things' are no more 'things' in the materialist sense than yin and yang are things, but just a further iteration of the possibilities of process, such that one might, if anyone had the stamina and insight, elaborate each of them in turn with its own name, description, and commentary.

    There is something I am trying to articulate, and failing to, about the way the fundamental division permeates reality that is very different from the hierarchies of Western dichotomies. It is as if, as well as computer programs being composed of 0s and 1s, every program and every sub-routine is in some significant sense 1-ish or 0-ish.
  • Ying
    397
    Thanks for that, interesting links that I need to spend some time with, and a very useful cosmology.unenlightened

    Heh, no problem. :wink:

    I have lived with this in the background as I have lived with a Christian cosmology in the background, along with scientific materialist, and so on. So I am always wanting if not a reconciliation, at least a translation, an understanding of one in terms of the other. What I am trying to do is to get some idea of the status of the various elements in relation to the philosophical language more familiar here. There seems to be an affinity with Pythagorean ideas of cosmic vibration and so on, and also with Platonic forms, but without the separation of ideal from the tangible.

    The philosophy in the "I Ching" seems to have a very odd way of looking at human life, in the sense that it seems to claim that all individual situations we experience can be equated to one of the 64 base situations outlined in the text. These base situations also have multiple permutations as outlined by the moving lines (not just the base six moving lines, but any combination thereof). As such, it seems to claim that the situations we experience in life aren't as unbounded in scope as they may seem to us. It also seems to claim that individual lives aren't all that different in their base experiences, only that those base experiences are configured differently according to our place in the world and according to our personal morals (?). I know of no other system, philosophical or otherwise, which looks at human life (lives?) in such a particular way. I'm also not all that sure what to make of it (as an overarching view on life), even though I've been studying the thing for over a decade now. My study of the "I Ching" mainly focuses on what it means to be a "junzi", or even a "sheng", that is, a "superior person" and a "sage" respectively. I certainly don't claim to be either, but I do respect the ideals held within those conceptions of what it means to be a "virtuous man". I tend to not focus so much on the larger metaphysical issues I outlined earlier in this post.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junzi

    Something new to me already is the sense that 'the ten thousand things' are no more 'things' in the materialist sense than yin and yang are things, but just a further iteration of the possibilities of process, such that one might, if anyone had the stamina and insight, elaborate each of them in turn with its own name, description, and commentary.

    Yeah, not me :razz:

    There is something I am trying to articulate, and failing to, about the way the fundamental division permeates reality that is very different from the hierarchies of Western dichotomies. It is as if, as well as computer programs being composed of 0s and 1s, every program and every sub-routine is in some significant sense 1-ish or 0-ish.

    Are you familiar with the work of Mitchell Feigenbaum? I'm certainly no expert on chaos theory (the math is way over my head for me to even read up about the actual intricacies but I do find the field fascinating on a superficial conceptual level) but it seems like you're alluding to some of the stuff he was working on.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Feigenbaum
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feigenbaum_constants#History
  • tim wood
    8.7k
    I took a try at the I Ching some time ago. Among the first things I did was check different translations (into English), noting the considerable differences between them. I'll throw this out as a proposition. If true. then it speaks for itself. If false, then would the person making that argument provide at least one - two would be nice - counter-examples?

    Proposition: the I Ching has no determinate meaning, or even determinate set of meanings. In short, it means whatever persuasive interpreters can persuade people to think it means. Or in other terms, in itself it means nothing.
  • Ying
    397
    I took a try at the I Ching some time ago. Among the first things I did was check different translations (into English), noting the considerable differences between them. I'll throw this out as a proposition. If true. then it speaks for itself. If false, then would the person making that argument provide at least one - two would be nice - counter-examples?

    Proposition: the I Ching has no determinate meaning, or even determinate set of meanings. In short, it means whatever persuasive interpreters can persuade people to think it means. Or in other terms, in itself it means nothing.
    tim wood

    Oh look someone is trying to shift the burden of proof. Good luck with that.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    Are you familiar with the work of Mitchell Feigenbaum?Ying

    Of course! I almost said it there already without realising, Fractal geometry - Symmetry between different scales.

    it seems to claim that all individual situations we experience can be equated to one of the 64 base situations outlined in the text.Ying
    .

    Well it is so beautiful - the world conceived as a breaking wave, life as riding the wave, a wave itself, the way the foaming chaos is repeated bifurcation of the same wave symmetry. And in nature one finds that fractals are the structure of the world - life-forms, coastlines ...

    I need to stop and think; I'll just try this:

    Sea Atmosphere
    pure mixed (water, foam, spray, air)
    Joining separating ? (The trigrams are beyond me just now.)

    The sage looks at the curl of a leaf and sees the state of the nation.
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