It’s magical, and God isn’t. — AJJ

So I have to wonder how you're defining "magical." What does that refer to, exactly? What are the criteria for a claim being magical versus not-magical?

Magical because it exists for no reason, by virtue of nothing except its own inexplicable nature. Call that something else if you want, I call it magic; or worse, since there isn’t even anyone holding the wand.

Magical because it exists for no reason, by virtue of nothing except its own inexplicable nature. — AJJ

So in the case of God, the reason is?

He exists as the universe’s explanation and his timelessness makes him eternal.

Wait, so the reason that god that exists is that he's the explanation of the universe, so that his existence hinges on that? God didn't exist prior to the universe?

He’s eternal. I meant he’s posited as the explanation for the universe.

er. Pretty hard to argue the objectivity of gravity philosophically after falling out of a tree. — Mww

Relativity works, where it works and doesn't work, where it doesn't work. About a million years ago in a some physics class I was told to just to the calculations. Don't argue which machine is right, or better, or anything. Pick the right one for the job, plug in the numbers and turn the crank. As you can see that stayed with me.

(Chuckles to self) Wasn’t it Feynman that said, “shut up and calculate!!!”? Maybe Wheeler. I can’t remember. One of those theoretical eggheads.

You know....we’ve never been where relativity doesn’t work. We’re pretty sure there are those kinda places, but we won’t have that first-person direct experience for awhile yet, methinks. And I have to say, I don’t think we’ll ever be in a place where a supernatural explanation will be necessary for anything GR doesn’t explain already.

Graham Oppy is a distinguished atheist philosopher of religion, don’t know how well known he is, but he simply believes that there is a necessary part of the universe, while accepting that theism is reasonable also.

no we kind of actually have, pretty sure we can say quantum entanglement is real.

Crap. Forgot the EPR spooky action. OK....I’ll grant your counterpoint. You know that’s up to 14 miles now, last I read about anyway. Chinese did it a few years ago.

and on some relatively big stuff. Crazy world we live in.

Magical because it exists for no reason, by virtue of nothing except its own inexplicable nature. — AJJ

Here's the problem: that's not an argument against atheism, or agnosticism if you prefer. It's just an argument against one possible atheistic position out of multiple possible atheistic positions. Even if you manage to refute this one position, you still will not have refuted atheism.

It's actually an even bigger problem than that, because you base your reasoning for concluding theism on ruling out atheism. So, with the failure to rule out atheism, your whole argument for theism collapses.

The obvious alternative, which I've pointed out to you previously, and which you have found too challenging to refute, is that there's no known reason.

Scepticism beats theism.

you must posit a source beyond the universe, which, being beyond the universe, is necessarily spacless and timeless, not arbitrarily so, because it is beyond the universe, of which space and time are a part. To have creative power it must also be conscious, because as I think you’ll agree, concepts have no creative powers per se. The name we give to this entity is God. — AJJ

This is the kind of crap which always seems to turn up in these debates about 'God'. Who on earth is the "we" you are referring to in your last sentence?

2 billion theists are Christian, which means that for them 'God' sent his son to earth who spoke to his twelve disciples about his father's will. About a billion are Muslims, which means that for them 'God' is the entity which spoke directly to Mohammed providing him with certain instructions on how to live and what comes after death. There's about 14 million Jews for whom 'God' parted the Red Sea to allow the Israelites to flee Egypt and then instructed Moses on how to live. There are 900 million Hindus for whom 'God' is any of a number of entities governing the eternal cycle of birth and rebirth.

Given the number of people on the planet, there's not a lot of room for a group who think 'God' is just a spaceless and timeless entity beyond the universe (whatever the hell that means) and nothing else.

Yeah, who is this "we"? The name I give the concept is, "You're a fool if you believe that I have an actually existing referent". Granted, that's a bit of a mouthful.

Settle down everyone, you don’t have to believe it if you don’t want to. I’m out.

Yes, a classic confusion between that which can be said (by virtue of stringing some words together) and that which has any actual meaning for either party.
Despite protestations to the contrary, I still maintain the evidence from religion is that what 'God' means to most theists is much closer to Zeus than it is to a theory in astrophysics as it is so often worded.

I am not sure if you mean that there is no objective meaning of life. Ofcourse people are in agreement on many things when it comes to the meaning of life accross all continents but on some things people are not. So there is a broad agreement on what the meaning of life is and some minor differences which I believe can be solved to some extent.

Thank you and this is my first post.

Settle down everyone, you don’t have to believe it if you don’t want to. I’m out. — AJJ

Leave Britney alone! Stop being so critical! She can shave off all of her hair and attack people with an umbrella if she wants to! I just can't come up with a strong enough argument, so I'm resorting to an appeal for sympathy and giving up! :clap: :lol:

Yes, a classic confusion between that which can be said (by virtue of stringing some words together) and that which has any actual meaning for either party.
Despite protestations to the contrary, I still maintain the evidence from religion is that what 'God' means to most theists is much closer to Zeus than it is to a theory in astrophysics as it is so often worded. — Isaac

Yes, I agree. I'm convinced that, in truth, it boils down to an emotional yearning. Underneath it all is the Sky Daddy, the Holy Coping Mechanism. What I say is, throw away the crutches, you might just discover that you can walk perfectly well without them. These people have yet to discover that God is dead.

He’s eternal. I meant he’s posited as the explanation for the universe. — AJJ

That's fine, but weren't you talking about the reason for God's existence? Why/How God exists in the first place? You're not saying that the reason for God's existence is that He's posited as the explanation for the universe, are you?

He’s necessary, which means that He can’t not exist. Through various logical steps, and I’ve tried to demonstrate some of those as well as I can, He is shown to be the necessary source of the universe.

He’s necessary, which means that He can’t not exist. — AJJ

But that's magical thinking on your definition.

Even if by chance he was necessary, that says nothing about whether he was sufficient. Logically speaking then, he has no more power for the causation of the Universe than natural law.

No, because of everything I’ve already said.

He does, because of everything I’ve already said.

No more replies to any of this now from me.

So if we were to say something like "the universe is necessary for our experiences" that wouldn't be magical thinking re the universe (sans God) necessarily existing?

If you’re gonna pick a fight, at least come to the battlefield as well prepared as those you pick a fight with. Showing up and saying Hey, I’m here, now y’all go ahead and give up right now.....is a good way to get your helmet handed back to you in pieces.

No more replies to any of this now from me. — AJJ

Come on now, guys. Allow him some respite. There's only so much criticism he can take before his coping mechanism kicks in.