Reconstructing Democracy - A New Form of Government?

BrianW

Do we, as a world-wide collective, belong to an emergent but distinct form of government?

In this new government, authority belongs to a 'unified interactive concept' which neither those in professional offices nor the masses can be said to solely hold. I mean that, leaders are as much under the directive of the followers just as the followers are under the directive of the leaders. That is, we're not just leading or following others but we have a clear picture of how the relation (between leaders and followers) should be and where it should lead. So, even though there's lots of manoeuvring in the various fields of administration, it is clear that any form of subordination is a thing of the past. Therefore, a leader could deceive and thus misuse the authority of the office they work in but they cannot declare personal ownership of that authority. The masses cannot also gain control of this authority because they are answerable to this 'unified interactive concept' and, therefore, must define the purpose or intent of their actions and, even then, authority is not absolute since it is constantly subjected to scrutiny.

So far, I've described the point to which we've reached with our efforts at democracy. However, there is a further step of government which is achieving greater realisation in our society. It manifests as the power of popular opinion but it does not seem to be the property of any distinct level of community. Some have tried to blame it on the press but, they're as much under its sway as they seem to propagate it. Some have blamed celebrities and certain public figures but, they too, are under its sway as much as they propagate it. And the same seems to apply to anybody or any configuration of society which may claim to hold any portion of its influence, because it seems to build and tear down presences without respect to any persons.

This new form of government is not yet perfect in its manifestation but, it is open to improvement and is wholly dependent upon our collective efforts. Is it that we're realising the essence or truth of democracy, as equality and which is gradually perfecting our concept of 'government of the people, by the people, for the people'. It's main difference from the past forms of government being that leaders and followers are only distinguished by function or role of participation instead of any inherent quality specific to some and absent in others. That is, we all have leadership as an inherent quality, the difference being that we manifest it in different modes and to different degrees.

No matter how far 'perfect democracy' seems to be, is it visible on the horizon, yet?

Jamesk

↪BrianW

Democracy is on the way out. I actually think that only a totalitarian world government can save our civilization.

BrianW

Democracy is on the way out. I actually think that only a totalitarian world government can save our civilization. — Jamesk

That's an unexpected point of view. Why is that?

Jamesk

↪BrianW

Democracy is rule by popularity, our species faces some very hard decisions about our survival. This will not be popular with anyone and so democracy will fail to make such decisions. Also you must remember that democracy is part of the cycle of society, it works until the we start voting to give us more money......

BrianW

↪Jamesk

Democracy isn't necessarily about voting or consensus via public agreement. Most of the agreement is usually abstract, sub-conscious and pre-determined instinctively. The noise made through public awareness or media does have influence but not more than the personal realisation of what equality and progress means. We are instinctively and gradually learning that the more freedom we allow others the more we are allowed by others.
At the moment, the practice of democracy in public forums such as voting is still exceedingly flawed, mostly because people react more to the competitiveness than the intelligent impetus. However, there's an increasing trend of people realising how such endeavours can be directed towards personal gain through intelligent choices or how unintelligent choices lead to personal losses.
A good example would be Trump's presidential regime where most of the affluent supporters have come to realise what a mistake he is. It is more likely in future that political (and even social) loyalty will depend on capacity for intelligent expression than raw materiality without intelligent backup.

I'm just saying, democracy is evolving and it's even affecting our instinctive choices. The more intelligence we apply to our interactions the more we realise, even instinctively, that two heads are better than one. Popularity can include intelligence and in more ways than one it is continually proving so.

Jamesk

↪BrianW

The demographic time bomb of immigration will force sovereign states to rethink their voter eligibility.

Athena

↪BrianW

Democracy is not authority over the people. Unfortunately, the US modeled its industry after England's autocracy and Christianity has been the dominating religion. These autocratic institutions, the church, industry, and the military have controlled education. Education is like a like a genii in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genii, Since 1958 we have prepared the young for a technological society with unknown values, and none have been prepared for democracy. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended. It has been left undefended for over 50 years, and those who remember our nation when we defended our democracy in the classroom are dead or at the end of their lives. There should be absolutely no need to point out democracy is rule by reason, not rule of authority over the people.

Today, there are no teachers trained to defend democracy in the classroom. Some understand the importance of logic to liberty and justice and some understand the importance of freedom of speech, but without the whole understanding of democracy as rule by reason, we are not manifesting the democracy that was the dream of the Age of Enlightenment. Liberal education is for free people. Education for technology is for slaves. We need a revolution in thinking to get our democracy back on track.

Athena

↪Jamesk

Public education was about realizing the dream of the Age of Enlightenment and also resolving the problem of the immigration time bomb that concerns you. Back in the day, violence, social and economic problems were threatening our democracy, and education had nothing to do with vocational training. Education was all about preparing the young for liberty and justice and a democratic social organization.

At the 1917 National Education Association Conference, Sara H. Fahey, teacher of English, Seward Park School, New York City, explained we did not leave education for citizenship up to parents immigrating from countries that did not understand our institutions and reasoning behind our liberty and justice. We educated the children, trusting their parents would learn from them.

I am a great grandmother now and it is not immigrants who threaten me and our democracy, but the masses educated for a technological society with unknown values. It is education for the Military Industrial Complex, put in place during the Eisenhower administration, that is destroying our democracy. We adopted this education and the bureaucratic order of our world war enemy and we are no longer the democracy we defended in two world wars. We are the Military Industrial Complex we defended our democracy against. Hitler and Bush called this the New World Order. Eisenhower's term, Military Industrial Complex, is a more definitive label for this organization of humanity.

Jamesk

↪Athena

Britain is a Christian country as is France, Germany etc. If a Muslim population becomes the majority then they will rule and change the nature of the country. In the US it is the Latin minority. I am not racist I am merely pointing out that I believe the UK will suspend democracy before Westminster Abbey becomes a Mosque.

The war between Christianity an Islam has been going on for hundreds of years, this is just the latest installment.

Athena

↪BrianW

"I'm just saying, democracy is evolving and it's even affecting our instinctive choices. The more intelligence we apply to our interactions the more we realise, even instinctively, that two heads are better than one. Popularity can include intelligence and in more ways than one it is continually proving so."

May I ask everyone who cares about this subject to attend a local city or county public hearing and report back if the meeting was democratic or autocratic? Were people able to have interactive discussions until there was a consensus of the best reasoning, or were people limited to 3 minutes to address complex issues, and then silenced? Were people engaging each other or the authority at the front of the room? Was there a consensus on the best reasoning or did those in the seats of power make the ruling?

Is your job under democratic or autocratic management? Do you have ongoing training and the expectation of raising in your place of employment, or is there a distinct division of those who make the decisions and those who follow orders? How do you think the employees of Ford and GMC would vote to the close the factories where they work? Would the citizens of those communities vote to get rid of the factories? Is autocracy working for us and the economies of our cities and nation? We had no concept of the democratic model of industry until the Great Depression when Deming tried to convince Industrialist in the US to use the democratic model. Of course, that was rejected. The decision was never put on our ballots.

Democracy is fully dependent on the education of citizens. It is dependent on being taught how to think, notwhat to think. Preparing our young to be products for industry, is not education for citizenship. Vocational training was introduced in 1917 when we mobilized for the first world war, and it was essential to our ability to win world wars because a high tech military needs people who understand the technology and how to use it. This is completely different from opposing armies marching into each other and battling it out with very little technology and 100% dependent on patriotic notions that make people kill each other. We don't need these guys any more nor their permission to go to war. We need their tax dollars so we can buy a lot of technology and use that technology to destroy the enemy. That military reality gave us the 1958 National Defense Education Act, and who would know, democracy is about rule by reason, and therefore education is essential to democracy?

Athena

↪Jamesk

Oh yes, those European countries are Christian. :lol: And they all believed God was on their side when they fought wars against each other. Why do people make an issue of wars Christians have fought with Muslims? Christians have a history if killing Muslims and each other. Religion is good for war and war is good for religion. Democracy is what brought an end to this insanity, of Christians killing each other. It never was Christianity that brought us peace, but democracy. We would still be killing each other in the name of God if it were not for democracy.

It is much harder to get people to agree to a war when it means their lives are on the line and they are going to war for something other their God. Excuse me, would you please give us the money to invade Iraq because it is strategic to our control of oil and our economy depends on it. I don't think that would work so well. But it works if they are not Christians like us. Then our President is doing the will of God to invade and destroy the country with no plan for protecting woman and children and the antiquities, just a plan for protecting the oil. What do you want to say about the wars we have with Muslims?

Athena

↪Jamesk

"Democracy is rule by popularity".

That is a really poor understanding of democracy and it is not worth defending people who believe that.

BrianW

↪Jamesk

We're still learning through trials and errors. However, there's a fundamental shift in mentality where more and more people, while still concerned for their own welfare, are increasingly showing concern for the immigrants too. By and by, we're becoming less of a dog eat dog society.

Jamesk

That is a really poor understanding of democracy and it is not worth defending people who believe that. — Athena

The democracies we have in the west these days mostly return governments / Parties that spend the most on the campaign and promise tax cuts. The last US election decided on the quality of the candidates was when Kennedy won.

Jamesk

Religion is good for war and war is good for religion. — Athena

This sums it up for me,

"And the madmen all say they hear voices
God tells them what to do
The wars are all about money
They always were
And the money's dressed up in religion
And when it's not showing off, the money's hiding."

BrianW

↪Athena

Whatever decisions were made back then concerning the way forward in education, was because they earnestly thought it was the better way forward. Technology, especially in the past, has had an enchanting effect over humans and, judging by modern trends (addiction to social media, video games, and other machines) we're still under its thrall. However, we're increasingly becoming aware of its role as a mere tool for human support instead of a substitute for humans in their life activities.
People don't suffer or die from lack of resources because nature can't provide, it's because we are yet to fully realise the value of our fellow humans and eventually all of life's resources (the biological and non-biological). The value of equality, decency, compassion is written in huge flaming letters in every page of nature and how it nurtures everything despite the favourable and unfavourable flavours of experience it offers.
We often claim that we know we're fallible. However, our response to our limitations usually suggests otherwise. If education systems are not perfect, it's because we cannot extract the appropriate utility from them. There's nothing wrong with education directed towards technology as long as people remember that technology is just a means to enrich our lives not a substitute for life-experiences or a shortcut to overcoming the consequences of human ignorance (primarily conflicts).

We may think ourselves the cream of the crop of this planet at the moment but, to put it analogically, what would the smartest toddler in kindergaten have to offer any field of knowledge other than being a test subject, at the least? It's the same with us humans, we have more to learn than teach. We need to realise that first before we pretend to save the world.

Fortunately, as nature would have it, we're learning and, to a large extent, without knowing why or how. Democracy, tailored on the idea of equality, is growing in us just as we grow as a society. I think it's partly our efforts and mostly nature. I think we've done a great job to realise that if we don't conform to nature's wisdom we might just be left behind and nothing is a greater motivation for living beings than the fear of death, in this case, collectively as human extinction, or worse becoming an inferior life-form.

BrianW

The root of democracy is far beyond the limits of current humanity. For generations now we've declared ourselves to be thinking life-forms but, most of our past actions show we're at the foot of the mountain and just a few steps into the climb, far from the summit we hope to reach. Equality and, consequently, democracy would be better realised the higher up the mountain we climb. And, as with all beginners, the road underfoot is another battle to win. What I mean is that, there's more to democracy than defining it.

Athena

↪Jamesk

One way we might protect our democracy is to strictly limit paid political advertising and put more pressure on journalist and media in general to do their job of defending our democracy by keeping us well informed. If we knew more about the development of information gathering and how it is used, and knew more about the development if political advertising and the governments relationship with research and the media, and knew more about what industry and foriegn powers have to do with our campaign funding, perhaps we could reform politics in the US.

Some countries forbid or limit paid political advertizements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_advertising

Athena

↪BrianW

You said there is more to democracy and I am very stressed about not everyone understanding what you said. Government is only part of democracy.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." (General Report of the Seminar on "What is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.)

That is quoted from the Democracy Series of textbooks used for grade school classes when the US began mobilizing for war against Germany. This mobilization for war against Germany began long before declaring war on Germany and I suppose we can call it a covert action, because, heavens we would not use public education and children to mobilize our nation for war would we? Yes, we would.
We tried to prevent the Civil War with education, but the South caught on to the North using education to change Southern values and it began publishing its own textbooks, promoting southern values. And we used public education to mobilize for both the first and second world war, when it took us a good year to mobilize for wars and these wars depended on patriotic citizens to support the wars. Not like today and the ability to engage in war in a few hours notice and maintain a war without disrupting our morning cup of coffee. Today, our wars don't noticeably affect our lives so we can ignore how our military is used and why and that left the Military Industrial Complex free to prepare our young as products to serve the Military Industrial Complex and ignorant of democracy.

We stopped transmitting our culture and educating for democracy in 1958. Now everyone seems to think democracy is about politics rather than a way of life. And we think morals is about religion, rather than living sanely and having liberty and justice.

BrianW

↪Athena

To me, democracy is social interaction based on unity and harmony, and worked through intelligence. It is about knowing who and what we are and have, and acting appropriately.
Different societies may have realised the value of democracy at different times in their progression, often when faced with the threat of being denied certain rights and freedoms but, even then, at best, the realisation was just a first step.
For example, the democracy expressed in that report of 1939 had yet to recognise 'non-white' people as equal to 'white' people. The idea is expressed well enough but it may be said to be at the conception stage. Over the succeeding years, through many trials and errors, we learned to apply it in our day to day interactions with our fellow humans. And, even today, we're still learning of ways to advance our applications and experiences.

As to transmitting culture, I would say, we are at a point where we need to realise what it means to be human and what to propagate to future progeny as a collective human endeavour instead of the divergent societies of the past which, as we've come to realise, were greatly limited by their exclusion of others. The future of humanity would be served better by developing a collective culture than returning to the old ones.

Jamesk

↪Athena

Big business owns and controls all the media in the west today as much as the Soviet government controlled 'state media' in the USSR. The foundations for plutocracy / oligarchy are here already, hence a CEO as the US president.

Athena

↪BrianW

Okay, I am dying to know how you came to that notion of democracy and the mention of what science and (rule by reason) have to do with democracy and liberty. What thinking are you building upon? Where did that thinking originate?

Athena

↪Jamesk

Okay, and how did this change happen? Our local newspaper was privately owned until just recently. It is called the Register Gaurd because we had an understanding of what freedom of speech and being well informed has to do with defending our democracy. Do you remember the old journalist who believed they were giving our nation a great service by informing citizens and doing investigative reporting? That was an important cultural difference, and that begins with education teaching the principles of democracy and preparing every single citizen to defend that democracy.

People keep defending education for technology and they are missing the point! I love technology and I think we are on the verge of huge improvements because of technology. Computers are better at making some decisions that affect our lives because they can hold vastly more information than a human, and they are unbiased. We absolutely should know how every inch of land in our cities is used, and have accurate measurements of every resource and the management of things like trash and sewage, with accurate measures of our populations and room for growth. We are making decisions based on limited personal experience and personal interest, and not facts, and we seem to be clueless about our thinking errors! :scream: Technology can mean better decision making than ever before possible, along with a whole lot of other benefits. I was born crippled and medical technology resolved that problem and gave me a normal life. I love technology! :love:

There is no problem with education for technology, except it stopped transmitting the culture we need to defend our democracy. When we stopped transmitting our culture we unleashed autocracy. We have autocratic industry and the majority don't even know the democratic model. If we had education for democracy and democratic industry, we would resolve most of our problems.

What is happening in the minds of those who think our president should be as the Lion King instead of every single citizen being prepared for democracy? Our military can not defend our democracy as education can.

BrianW

↪Athena

Democracy is based upon the idea of equality or that all humans can be equally cared for within the collective. But, equality is not similarity. This means that for equality to work we must accept others for who they are not because they resemble us or our ideas. This is what I mean by

It is about knowing who and what we are and have, and acting appropriately.

To have such an understanding and to express it harmoniously there is need for intelligence, otherwise, they're just words without significance.

In essence, my understanding is no different from yours or that of any other person. That 1939 report gave a very decent account of what democracy is but, when it came to practice, the level of ideas and experience were very different.

I'm saying that democracy is a very lofty concept which, though we may be on the path to realising it, judging by our present actions, it may be said to be 'something visible at the distant horizon'. There's still a long way to go which involves a lot of trials and errors before we make it.

Jamesk

↪Athena

Utilitarian philosophy is the philosophy of big business, maximize profits by maximizing short term satisfaction. Consequentialism needs to take long term consequences far more seriously and this is exactly the problem democracies face.

Democratic governments are usually loathed to invest in vital infrastructure ahead of investing in popular policies like tax cuts and health care. The reluctance to carry out the projects needed to make real change is because these projects can rarely be completed within one term in office. No politician wants to commit resources to any project that they will not be able to claim success for and benefit from the political capitol gained to get re-elected..

Athena

BrianW, I would love to get my hands on the book you read.

Are you aware of the importance of the Greek and Roman classics that were the foundation of liberal education? No one understood democracy until there was literacy is Greek and Roman classics. A correct understanding of our equality does not come from the Christian bible but from the Greek gods who were all gods and very different. The people of Athens believed we were made in the image of the gods because of our capacity for reason. As a bird is born to fly, humans are born to reason, and because they have the capacity for reasoning they can live by reason. For them to do this, they must be civilized. Rural people are not civilized people. (I don't mean today's people, but in the past, people living outside of cities just didn't have information available to them and did not realize any need for it.)

Interestingly the Iroquois Confederacy also lived with a belief that a man taught them to live by reason, and they also influenced the development of our federal government.

Cicero is essential reading. The Roman statesman explains that only when we live by reason, do things go well, and to not care about universal law and living by the law is ignorance. Our democracy is not just about equality, but about knowing the laws of nature and basing our decisions on them. If we understood the source of our democracy and the importance of science to our democracy, there is no way we would continue to contribute to global warming because in the moment that is what is best for our economy. We are violating the laws of nature and denying the consequences and that is not being a good democracy.

Athena

↪Jamesk

I love your post. :love: But, but being stupid idiots is not about being a democracy! Far from it! The whole point of democracy is having good judgment! :cry: What am I doing wrong? No one understands what I say of education. Seriously, if I were speaking with people of my grandmothers day, I think they would understand what I am saying, instead of defending education for technology. How horribly paradoxical it is that people think I am opposed to knowing what is vitally important, and then tell me democracy is about being stupid idiots.

Why are we not sharing the belief that democracy is about being well informed and empowered to make the best possible decisions?

The problem with democracy that wrote of is a failure to understand democracy. The Greeks loved their public works. It is what we the people do, not what I, your major or your president does.

Jamesk

Why are we not sharing the belief that democracy is about being well informed and empowered to make the best possible decisions? — Athena

Because modern democracy just isn't like that any more, it's all image and 'spin'. Countries with smaller populations without religious divides do still have meaningful democracies but they are usually socialist. Capitalism is the enemy of meaningful democracy.

Athena

↪Jamesk

Please consider what education has to do with the change in our democracy. I am asking you this, because we need a revolution and to take back the control of our schools. This is an incredibly difficult challenge because poorly informed people are not the people we want in charge. However, those who understand democracy and the relationship of education to democracy need to take control of education, and before this can happen, the number, and power, of these people has to be greater than the Military Industrial Complex that got control of our democracy following WWII, and turned us into what we defended our democracy against.

How can awareness of what happened, be increased? There are possible organizational changes that could be made, but most important is returning public education to education for democracy and replacing autocratic industry with democratic industry. The enemy of the people rarely was invaders. The enemy of the people since the beginning of civilization has mostly been those who took the controlling positions on the one hand, and on the other hand, ignorance of the people. Voting for a Lion King President is simply ignorance. I am afraid Christianity is not compatible with democracy? God is not sending us great leaders to take care of us. We must rely on ourselves.

Trump seems to stand for individualism but not for reasoning, and that leads to violence as push leads to shove. He calls someone who does not stand strong with a lie, weak, attacking those who do not please him with shame and lost power to do their jobs. He and Bush are proud about taking action without thinking and without consulting others. This behavior is not compatible with democracy. Republicans seem to be Christian and like having the power and glory of God, but their morals are not compatible with democracy, which is shared power and glory. George Washington at no time boosted he was the best.

BrianW

Our democracy is not just about equality, but about knowing the laws of nature and basing our decisions on them. — Athena

That's what I said in my previous posts. Here are some references to the above sentiment:

The value of equality, decency, compassion is written in huge flaming letters in every page of nature and how it nurtures everything despite the favourable and unfavourable flavours of experience it offers. — BrianW

I think we've done a great job to realise that if we don't conform to nature's wisdom we might just be left behind... — BrianW

It is about knowing who and what we are and have, and acting appropriately.
To have such an understanding and to express it harmoniously there is need for intelligence — BrianW

Athena

↪BrianW

Those are excellent statements but I thought you also said democracy is the problem. I think we need to be careful about that because when we say democracy is the problem, or modern democracy is the problem, then we undermine the will to defend democracy. Our democracy for sure has problems, however, it is not the problem.

A strong democracy must have a strong education to manifest the characteristics of democracy. A strong democracy requires liberal education at the primary school level. The young must be prepared to be free people, that is a liberal education. Education for technology that sees our young as something we prepare to be products for industry is not education for free people. I keep repeating that because Oregon had a mayor who got people to vote for taxes for schools by saying our young are products to prepare for industry. Oregon made itself dependent on outside investors like a third world country, and this mentality is coming from the world bank. Our reality is undermining our democracy, but the problem is not democracy. I don't think people are aware of anything regarding education except it is tied to individuals and communities making money. Defending our democracy in the classroom just is not a concept we hold. We are taking our democracy for granted and that is a mistake. Now we are criticizing democracy and making matters worse!

However, what are saying needs to be said, as long as it doesn't appear to find fault with democracy. That may seem really picky but as I struggle to raise awareness of what democracy is and that our democracy is threatened, making the picky distinction seems important to me.

I want to stress our forefathers were fanatical about science and that was tied to ideas of liberty. Science would trump the Trump if people understood what science has to do with our liberty, and that as citizens of a democracy they need to be informed of the scientific point of view. We need to reawaken the connection between science and good moral judgment and science and democracy and liberty. A liberal education is not devoid of science. We must not confuse scientific thinking with education for technology and for a high tech society with unknown values, that accepts education as a means to prepare the young to be products for industry. We have a lot of thinking errors to clear up if we are going to save our democracy.

Reconstructing Democracy - A New Form of Government?

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