The world is currently producing about 18 terawatts of power. Solar had better get busy. — Bitter Crank

Fascinating factoid: In a single hour, the amount of power from the sun that strikes the Earth is more than the entire world consumes in an year.

http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-potential-of-solar-power-2015-9

Wow, so you dismiss the entire field of LENR, based on a prejudice towards Rossi? — Posty McPostface

I said, I'd be happy to look into specifics, that's not a dismissal. The likelihood it's sensible is very low though, because too many are still pursuing cold fusion which is why I'm not bothering to look into it myself. Your getting excited about demonstrations that aren't properly validated is the real problem here, not my skepticism towards LENR.

Have at it. A compendium of knowledge about LENR can be found here:

http://lenr-canr.org/

I say "specific" and I get a reference to a compendium. The fact that it features multiple articles reporting positively (and therefore uncritically) about rossi means at a minimum it just collects whatever mentions LENR and it will be like searching for a needle in a haystack for something sensible with respect to LENR. The fact they equate it with cold fusion is a big indication it will be mostly bunk. There's a reason this subject is off limits at physicsforum.com

Edit: upon review of the widom-larsen theory that had some suggestion it might make sense, I've just come to the conclusion all LENR to date is bunk.

You can look up on that website articles published by Tadahiko Mizuno and other Japanese. Their work spans something since the start of Cold Fusion with Pons and Fleischmann. NEDO is also a prominent candidate to look into.

If you're feeling up for it, there's this book also:

https://www.amazon.com/Nuclear-Transmutation-Reality-Cold-Fusion/dp/1892925001

Also:

http://e-catworld.com/

Look, Posty, I and others just clarified why Rossi's story is a lie and you forward a link that is especially interested and positive about his e-cat system. So we already know nobody at that site knows what they're talking about, so we can ignore it. I'm not going to buy a book that I'm confident still won't make LENR likely. Once I've read a theoretical framework that isn't inconsistent with established physical laws (particularly thermodynamics) AND rigorous math then we can start having a sensible discussion about the possibilities of LENR.

The problem is there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for LENR but nothing close to proof. You're offering similar proof as ghost sightings, mediums and tarot readings. That's is to say it's fun to talk about in a "what if it were real" sense but it isn't science at this point. The biggest problem appears to be reproducibility - Mizuno hasn't managed that either.

The biggest problem appears to be reproducibility - Mizuno hasn't managed that either. — Benkei

Mizuno has produced a working device... I'm not following you here since I am aware of the fact that Mizuno has a working device that produces more thermal energy than the input power.

This is the best I can do for you. Try and forget Rossi for a moment when reading these papers...

This might help also.

I'll fine some papers that you're interested in. Gimme a day or two.

Anyway, time for me to sleep.

Mizuno has produced a working device... I'm not following you here since I am aware of the fact that Mizuno has a working device that produces more thermal energy than the input power. — Posty McPostface

So does rossi. Theory and working math, Posty, the rest is just noise. Brouillon energy is another scam who claim there's a Wallstreet conspiracy because nobody wants to invest because of the unrealistic profit margin. :lol:

Edit: I'm instituting a new rule for this subject if your want me to continue in this thread. You should explain the physics underlying whatever LENR process you believe works and we'll take it from there. Having to skim through these websites isn't enjoyable at all and it makes for a silly conversation where all you say is "look here" and "look there".

Nope. After 30 years of discussions in order to convince someone, you need a working demonstrator that produces excess heat independently tested by scientific community worldwide, not another CF paper never accepted by GAS. I can't be a physicist and explain to you all the details of LENR. It's new after all. I hope we can save this discussion, and when Rossi or whoever delivers on their promise, then you'll be convinced. Russia is going to accept LENR as real science soon, so there's that sliver of hope for the field of LENR.

I'm not saying there can't be real science behind LENR but if you can't explain it then there's nothing to talk about. And if after 30 years you still don't understand the science, maybe you should start making an effort. I'm a lawyer for fuck's sake and I can get around chemistry and physics to some extent.

I'm not saying there can't be real science behind LENR but if you can't explain it then there's nothing to talk about. And if after 30 years you still don't understand the science, maybe you should start making an effort. I'm a lawyer for fuck's sake and I can get around chemistry and physics to some extent. — Benkei

Understood. But, I can't be your straw man. I understand physics in a conceptual manner. Transmutation of elements has been demonstrated and found to occur in LENR reactions. I don't know what else I can throw at you to convince you that this isn't all a scam, lie, and so on by Rossi. All that it is real and coming to the market soon. I am interested in how big companies will react. The US Navy has studied this LENR phenomenon and likely will try and implement it into ships and submarines. Time will tell.

Fascinating factoid: In a single hour, the amount of power from the sun that strikes the Earth is more than the entire world consumes in an year — Hanover

But in order to make use of all that energy you would have to cover the entire surface of the earth with perfectly efficient solar panels, which then perfectly efficiently deliver that energy to end consumers. So, all things considered, that doesn't actually seem like that much usable energy.

It's mind-boggling that despite a consensus opinion of the expert community, no remotely credible scientific and engineering justification, no independently verified demonstrations, and no apparent interest from the industry, which would stand to profit enormously if LENR was viable, there are still people eager to uncritically swallow this bullshit year after year after year. "Coming to market soon!" (And we've been hearing this song for how long? From Rossi alone - since 2011 at least.)

But in order to make use of all that energy you would have to cover the entire surface of the earth with perfectly efficient solar panels, which then perfectly efficiently deliver that energy to end consumers. So, all things considered, that doesn't actually seem like that much usable energy. — SophistiCat

Since there's always only half of the world facing the sun, half the world should be enough. Currently the most efficient solar cell converts 44,5% of sunlight into electricity. So let's say, theoretically, we can reach 50%. We have approximately 12 hours of sun on average per day a year. So we can make do with only covering 1/12 of the world (.5 X 2 due to efficiency x 1 hour / 12 hours of sunlight). Since we can smear this out over a year, we can make do with only covering 0,022% of the earth. That's only .1122 million square kilometers which leaves us about 148 million square kilometers to live on. 1 square kilometer of solar panels costs about 150 million USD.

At the low price of 17 trillion USD we could be done with global warming in one go. At current efficiency levels that would be 34 trillion USD. About 1/3 of world GDP now.

Sounds like a plan.

That's only .1122 million square kilometers which leaves us about 148 million square kilometers to live on. 1 square kilometer of solar panels costs about 150 million USD. — Benkei

So we need 112,200 square kilometers to power the planet for a year. The Netherlands comes in at 25,814 square kilometers, which means after it's paved over with solar panels, we'll still need approximately 90,000 square kilometers for me to be able to run my washer, watch South Park, and do whatever it is I do. I looked to France for more land because if we could increase our power and reduce our French, then we'd killing two birds with one stone. France is 400,039 square kilometers, which is more than enough, but I think we should go ahead and clear it all out now just to create the infrastructure for anticipated increased power needs. We don't want to wait to the last minute like we did this time and have another crisis.

Sounds like a plan.

If we could run the world on dreary instead of sun, I'd have chosen the UK for our power needs.

I looked to France for more land because if we could increase our power and reduce our French, then we'd killing two birds with one stone. — Hanover

Substitute Canada and Montenegro for France and you might even get Trump to buy your plan.

If we ran it on corruption, the US senate would be enough. Well, most parliaments in the world really...

@Benkei

Here's the fruition to my question that you postited:

https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/thread/5728-how-do-you-convince-a-skeptic/?pageNo=1

that fact will hasten the end of the fossil fuel era, due to the fact that fossils are inherently inferior to electric. [...] It's a matter of simple economics with climate change. A cost-benefit analysis is all that is needed to persuade a politician, and solar and the wind is becoming so cheap in many regions, that people are seriously considering the switch. — Posty McPostface

Apologies for the likely rude nature of my response but this is hopelessly naive or ignores the lack of time we have for these "simple matters" of economics to persuade politicians. The U.S. and China are overwhelmingly responsible currently. There's not much to do about China since they hit their industrialization period later. We don't have long (perhaps as soon as fucking 2030 according to the IPCC...) to avert catastrophe. In all likelihood, we will eclipse catastrophe by a considerable margin, we are well and truly fucked.

So honestly, I hope this was somewhat tongue in cheek. There's not enough time, the U.S. especially will insure we won't make it in time, it takes a long time to shift large sectors of the economy to doing something else on this scale (global) and it's just a fact that current big business is working overtime to prevent renewable energy from gaining prominence. That's the point in paying off politicians via campaign contributions to ensure climate change deniers (including the goddamn president) have a sizable control over the political system and thus large control over the economic developments in the world. Nothing about this is simple.

The reason why market forces won't help us avert the catastrophe is simple: the time scale of climate changes is much longer than any business cycle, or for that matter senior executives' expected tenure on their current jobs. So there simply is no economic incentive for anyone to do anything right now, and if we don't do anything right now we'll miss the last window of opportunity. So yeah, we are fucked.

Fucked how? If you mean our descendants will have to adapt to a changing world, that's true. That was going to be true in any case, though.

Fucked in the way climate science forecasts. I am not going to paraphrase it here for you - go read about it if you really want to know (or fuck off if you are here to troll).

Indeed. The degree to which we are fucked and just plugging our ears disturbs me. It's hard not to think about most days.

Oh yeah sure, they'll have to "adapt". In practice, this means an enormous death toll as sea levels rise destroying coastal cities the world over (major cities alone are usually on coastlines: New York, LA, Beijing, Tokyo), as climate fuckery worsens and promotes bad weather events (droughts, hurricanes, the whole shebang) and as violence of all types increase in response (people will have to flee inland to survive, causing issues with "OMG foreign 'invaders'! Gotta kill them"). Idiots have the stupid view that the Middle East is fucked up "because religion" while ignoring a major factor in worsening climate in the region (it will be uninhabitable in the foreseeable future).

So yes, we are fucked and no one who isn't being highly disingenuous and monstrous can say "We'll have to adapt" as a response to that. A bunch of people are

The hackney's slogan "think globally act locally" applies to climate change, and on the local level there is some (but not overwhelming) reason for optimism. Some of the the big states are actually doing quite a bit to tackle the transition to renewable sources of electricity. California is in the lead, but even Texas has a lot of operating wind generation. Small population states like Minnesota are making good progress in wind/solar generation.

None of it is enough, of course, and there are irrationalities all over the place. If any city/state could transition to solar, it's Phoenix, Arizona. Arizona has clear skies 300 days a year, but the political machine in Arizona is against building solar generation for it's largest city. Why? Because the powers that be are invested in the existing natural gas plant. Phoenix depends on the Colorado River for water and it takes a dedicated (coal fired, of course) power plant to power the pumps that are required to lift the water over the terrain.

Places like Phoenix will probably become unsustainable in the not too distant future; the Colorado River is over-subscribed and the reservoirs are shrinking. Thanks to all that bright sunshine and climate change, Arizona (and Phoenix) is hot and dry.

Without abundant and affordable energy, much of the world's population is unsustainable. Where would cities like Chicago be without heat in the winter? What about Houston in the summer without air conditioning? Much of the world's housing has been built with the proviso of affordable energy.

↪frank Fucked in the way climate science forecasts. I am not going to paraphrase it here for you - go read about it if you really want to know (or fuck off if you are here to troll). — SophistiCat

Not what I would all a sophisticated response.

Fucked in the way climate science forecasts. I am not going to paraphrase it here for you - go read about it if you really want to know (or fuck off if you are here to troll). — SophistiCat

Sigh.