This argument is still coherent even if P0 had been: an objective reality does not exist. There is no reason to assume either of these. — khaled
Actually, many people (myself included) believe that we can justify the existence of Objective Reality via Descartes' cogito. Despite the difficulties with who "I" might be, "I think, therefore I am" seems to demonstrate that *something* has Objective existence; therefore Objective Reality exists, and this something is all or part of it. But you can relax: this is the One and Only Objective Truth that a human can knowingly possess. :up: :smile: — Pattern-chaser
There ARE people that doubt the "therefore" in "therefore I am" and they make a pretty good case doing it. — khaled
But if thinking is going on, something is doing it — Pattern-chaser
Not wise to use those when the big bad devil is trying to twist all of you thinking. WOOOOOOO — khaled
Descartes proposed an "evil deceiver" that twists his reasoning so that 2+2 might actually be 5 but the evil deceiver keeps changing it to 4 in Descartes's mind every time. If you propose such a being you can't go on to then use logic as any time you try to logically reason anything the evil deceiver is going to make you think incorrectly. If you can't trust 2+2=4 I don't know why you'd trust "But if thinking is going on, something is doing it". Both of them should be true by definition but since the evil deceiver is there, you cannot use reason — khaled
I don't know why these denialists completely disregard... — Jeremiah
Just apply Occam's Razor — Jeremiah
If you have any common sense at all, — Jeremiah
So it simply does not matter if there is some magical illusion spinning demon as examining those illusions is still our best option. — Jeremiah
this is the only rational course of action — Jeremiah
There is a bit of nuance here. I do not define objective as impossible for anyone to disagree with I defined it as "What exists regardless of what anyone thinks about it". I then proceeded to show that objectivity is impossible to achieve as one never knows when he has it as you said — khaled
When I say "an objective knowledge/morality/value doesn't exist" that is a fault of mine. I really should be saying is "an objective knowledge/morality/value is unachievable to man". That is all my argument is about. Whether or not it exists I don't care because we will never achieve it — khaled
But this is the meaning of objectivity as it is usually used. Ask a scientist about why particles interact in this way or that and he will say that "It is an objective nature of reality". Ask a religious fundamentalist why he thinks God exists and he will say "It is an objective nature of reality". — khaled
My definition is what most people use and as it is used it is impossible. — khaled
On the other hand, objectivity defined as "Agreed upon by multiple subjective observers due to the persuasiveness of evidence and practicality". Then yes many many objective things exist. I don't know why whenever people hear "skeptic" or "nihilist" they assume that individual is critiquing this second type of objective when they are critiquing the first most of the time. — khaled
To YOU the coffee pot is empty because of 2 things
1-Senses are reliable
2-I sense a coffee pot — khaled
I'm not using it to mean when people say objective in the science. I'm using it to mean when they use it in religion or ethics debates. In THOSE cases everyone uses the definition of objective as "what is there regardless of what anyone thinks about it" and pretends they have the answer. And even in the sciences it is very often that scientists themselves conflate "inter subjective" with that definition of objective and those are the people I'm targeting. — khaled
The belief that an objective value/knowledge/morality is non existent — khaled
you're also denying the possibility of its existence beyond the human experience — Tzeentch
Will you now act in accordance to your beliefs that nothing has value and morality that doesn't exist? I doubt it. Do you think it is a constructive model upon which our society should be built? — Tzeentch
Perhaps some prefer to feign certainty than to accept doubt. — Tzeentch
Perhaps it is comforting to some individuals that they can project their own perceived meaninglessness on others — Tzeentch
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