Don't make me say something rude to you BC. I like you too much. Read my posts about assessing credibility, and look at the circumstances surrounding Ford's allegation, her respectable position and so on. If this was some random person who just came out with this, it would be a lot less credible.

Hanover, so the idea that you're being objective here and would have made all these posts defending Kavanaugh if he were a lefty is just absurd. — Baden

But what about what you're doing to him? Why does he not receive any empathy? Explain that. It is just very possible he's done nothing wrong? Why do you discount that possibly and where do you arrive at such certainty that he's a lying sack of shit? The most I can say is that he's innocent until proven guilty, and he's not been shown to me to be guilty. Might Ford be telling the truth? Sure, but I don't know that, and I can hardly prudently act on something I don't know.

I would ABSOLUTELY do the same for a lefty, and if I wouldn't that'd make me a hypocrite. So you are wrong about me personally, but I'm having a real problem trying to figure out why it'd matter logically if I were a hypocrite.

In any day it's a serious crime. — Maw

Not too long ago drunk driving was pretty much a joke. Now, of course, it's no joke at all. But it's not a question of what it is now or should have been then, rather it's a question of fact - what it was then, de facto, and maybe even de jure. His "trial" now is at best analogous to a civil trial. The standard won't be "beyond a reasonable doubt"; instead it will be more like, "is it more likely he did or didn't?" But we all will be lucky to get even that level of justice, barring further revelations.

I stick with my view that the far more relevant issue is whether he's lied, has been lying, and is a liar. From news reports it seems a very fair conclusion that he did, has been, and is.

Yet you continue to ignore Blasey Ford, the victim's interests — Baden

She is a victim, at this point, of an unproven accusation, an accusation that will most likely stay that way. #metoo and Blasey Ford make an accusation and you (you being a very big plural here, not the singular referring to Moderator Baden) automatically assume grave harm was done. Maybe it wasn't.

Don't make me say something rude to you BC. I like you too much. — Baden

Okay, let's take a break. You're getting more pissy than usual and you're taking it too personally. This is a true difference of opinion about what justice demands and no one here thinks that sexual abuse is any way acceptable.

Don't make me say something rude to you BC. — Baden

Baden, you should take a break and watch an hour or two of funny cat videos on YouTube.

Nope, you don't know me. You really don't. I believe in forgiveness and salvation in the sense that I think that people really can change who they are and become something much greater, and I find it profoundly inhumane to discard human beings to fulfill some personal goal. People are never to be treated as a means to an end. — Hanover

Unless they are victims of sexual assault who get in the way of Republicans plans to turn the Supreme Court conservative. But, of course, you really don't care about that at all, this is all about your principles and your quest for objective sainthood. Look, I accept you're not completely cynical and you're generally a good guy (and I totally resent you making me say that and will exact revenge later) but you are not going to convince me you are not at least somewhat biased here. Which is fine. I've seen a lot worse in this discussion.

Feinstein withheld the allegations until it could have the greatest impact. — Hanover

A conservative-peddled conspiracy theory. Ford told Feinstein to keep the allegations secret and she did. She did not release them. They were leaked. While it's quite possible the conspiracy theory is true and this was all part of Feinstein's evil plan, repeating it as undisputed fact further undermines your claims of objectivity. Why not give Feinstein as much benefit of the doubt as Kavanaugh? The answer is obvious.

Y'all just ignoring this second allegation that I just posted?

Not too long ago drunk driving was pretty much a joke. Now, of course, it's no joke at all. — tim wood

I'm not really understanding this line of reasoning. I'm also not discounting or downplaying the fact that he openly lied before, which would be enough to disqualify him. Anyway, I thought Ben Wittes had a good article in The Atlantic several days ago, in which he outlined why the burden of proof is arguably on Kavanaugh to confirm his innocence.

That was a joke, doofuses.

Even if Feinstein did withhold the allegations until they could have the greatest impact, for purely political purposes, the Republicans only have themselves to blame. They didn't even give Garland a hearing.

Y'all just ignoring this second allegation that I just posted? — Maw

First I heard of it. When did this come up? Didn't see it on the news last night.

Story broke two hours ago

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/senate-democrats-investigate-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-misconduct-from-the-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaughs-college-years-deborah-ramirez

He's toast.

Y'all just ignoring this second allegation that I just posted? — Maw

I saw it. It's just annoying. It's annoying that it's brought up without any proof at the last minute. What are we supposed to do with that?

That said, BC is a shithead.

you (you being a very big plural here, not the singular referring to Moderator Baden) automatically assume grave harm was done. Maybe it wasn't. — Bitter Crank

From my point of view, I've said I'd reserve full judgement, but thought it was likely he was guilty, but with a second allegation now, I find the chances of this all being made up too fantastical and believe the women. At some point, you have to make a judgment.

That said, BC is a shithead. — frank

Let's not go down the flaming route, any of us. Let this be one highly charged subject where we don't start to call each other nasty names. Amen.

A lawyer says he's representing a third.

https://twitter.com/MichaelAvenatti/status/1044006928416825344

Y'all just ignoring this second allegation that I just posted? — Maw

Sorry, I missed it earlier. Well, Kavanaugh and his upper-class friends engaged in a lot more juvenile sexual behavior than ever went on in the State College dorms when I was a student. However, as a college freshman (18 and up) Kavanaugh does have adult liability (I guess... 18? 21?) But it sounds like there will not be solid corroborating evidence in this second account, either: "The Case of the Dastardly Dildo".

I thought women were supposed to remain virgin until married. Is touching a penis as totally contaminating an event as intercourse?

He's dead. — Baden

Not sure if he's dead yet, but this does hammer several more nails in Kavanaugh's coffin.

lol it's "annoying" that women are speaking out about credible allegations to make sure a repeat sexual miscreant, an attempted rapist at worst, isn't sitting on the Supreme Court of the United States for a lifetime position where he will be upholding/overturning laws that will affect 300 millions of Americans.

What we are supposed to do is to go through an independent investigation (which shouldn't be problematic since the GOP didn't give Garland a hearing for months upon month), or the GOP, or Kavanaugh himself, should withdraw the nomination and they can just choose another cardboard cutout Originalist shitbag that will uphold the laws they want upheld, or strike down the laws they dislike. Otherwise, every decision Kavanaugh makes on his lifetime position will have a very large asterisk next to his name.

Let's not go down the flaming route, any of us. Let this be one highly charged subject where we don't start to call each other nasty names. Amen. — Baden

Honestly, I wasn't flaming. It's what I really think.

lol it's "annoying" that women are speaking out about credible allegations to make sure a repeat sexual miscreant, an attempted rapist at worst, isn't sitting on the Supreme Court of the United States for a lifetime position where he will be upholding/overturning laws that will affect 300 millions of Americans. — Maw

That's a disturbing thought. It would be nice if there was some proof.

That said, BC is a shithead. — frank

Of course it's possible that I am shit head; but it's also possible that I am not. It's probably a matter of your opinion--to which you are, of course welcome.

Honestly, I wasn't flaming. It's what I really think. — frank

perhaps, but you could be lying.

In any event, no law has been broken in this exchange.

This is a whole new level. Kavanaugh and Judge feeding women, who were then gang-raped by men, drugs. If this is true (and it really is just an "if" for now, it's too big not to require further evidence), he should definitely be prosecuted.

Only liquor and math require proof. Here corroborative credibility will suffice, and there is sufficient credibility to justify an independent investigation. Otherwise, if the GOP had a sense of propriety they would drop Kavanaugh and replace him with clone.

I really don't see any way Flake or Collins (and maybe Murkowski) will vote for Kavanaugh with these new accusations out there (the rest won't care but they don't have the numbers). So either they drop him now, or move on with a very delayed process, which will end in failure anyway.

I also don't really trust Avenatti that much.

In the wake of the new allegations, the shares for the question "Will Brett Kavanaugh be the next confirmed Supreme Court justice?" at the Predictit prediction market dropped from about 65 cents to about 35 cents. This translates into a probability of about 35% from the standpoint of the collective judgement of people who wage money on that sort of things.

The solution is a proper investigation.

But what about what you're doing to him? Why does he not receive any empathy? Explain that. It is just very possible he's done nothing wrong? Why do you discount that possibly and where do you arrive at such certainty that he's a lying sack of shit? The most I can say is that he's innocent until proven guilty, and he's not been shown to me to be guilty. Might Ford be telling the truth? Sure, but I don't know that, and I can hardly prudently act on something I don't know. — Hanover

I'd said several times before this that I only thought it was likely Ford was telling the truth. So, given I said this:

Just want to reemphasize that of the four scenarios I outlined, I only proposed, with reasons, the one that she is telling the truth and he is lying as the most likely. Any fair observer should recognize the possibility of the others, and analyze them in context. — Baden

...you are arguing from false premises here.

After you said the above, I've responded to the second allegation by saying I am willing to make the solid judgment now that Ford is telling the truth. The third allegation concerning drugs and gang rape I make no judgment on yet. But if you are interested in the truth, why haven't you been calling for a delay and further investigation? You say he hasn't been proven guilty but apparently have been supporting the moves of Republicans to confirm him before there is any chance he could be proven guilty. There should be a proper investigation now into these claims and let's find out the truth. If truth is what you're interested in, you should support that.

You're getting more pissy than usual and you're taking it too personally. — Hanover

I apologize if I gave that impression by the way with any of my comments. I'm trying to be objective too, believe it or not. I'll use more emojis or something. :rage: (Maybe not that one... )

This is a true difference of opinion about what justice demands and no one here thinks that sexual abuse is any way acceptable. — Hanover

You don't, but some others seem to think a certain level of it is acceptable or at least no big deal. That attitude needs to be pushed back against.

This just in.

A former Yale classmate of Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh, Deborah Ramirez told Ronan Farrow of The New Yorker that he allegedly shoved his penis in her face while she was intoxicated.