What does it mean to have 'lived'.? — Marcus de Brun

It means what it says. To have lived. My only hope is that it was done in an ethical manner of sorts or the event of death came at an elevated age.

What does it mean to identify with ones self.? — Marcus de Brun

It means to say that one is self-conscious. One doesn't go through life as a zombie, I hope.

I think if one gets a really good slice of life's pie, one will be satisfied and have less fear of dying, just like its hard to feel or fear hunger after Christmas dinner. — Marcus de Brun

I suppose we can head down this hedonistic past; but, I don't think there's any point to it at all.

I don't think its a question of hedonsim.

Death (imop) is only difficult when there are regrets that pertain to ones life. If one has few real and few deep regrets about ones life one is less likely to fear death and if one fears it less the experience is going to be less unpleasant.

Now the thing about life is that no matter how we choose to live it... we will have regrets, so the key to a 'good' death is having as few regrets as possible.

Not sure about the importance of ethics? An adherence to certain ethics is important.. but I think the universal ethical code of 'do no harm to others' is good enough for me.

I regret that i am not a vegetarian (animals are 'others') and this might make my death more unpalatable and hence more difficult, but I will take that on the chin because I love a rib-eye with a glass of cab-sav.

I don't think hedonism is an answer to the question.. but a love of self, a love of nature and as few regrets as possible are (I think) the personal ingredients for a relatively nice death.

M

I don't feel there is a taboo about death, or even of talking about it. It is unfathomable, final, devoid of process for appeal, offers no second chances or Mulligans, and offers no clues about what, if any, experience lies beyond it. Like finding for oneself that the stove is hot, every experience of it is unique and unidirectional; no one comes back from death offering anything tangible or verifiable for us to ponder. These qualities make death extremely difficult to contemplate or to share.

There is no commiseration in death, even if one can commiserate during its process, however briefly. You can't take a friend with you. There are no photos or video after the fact. We have no tour guides to help us to enjoy a better journey....whatever that means.


In that sense, I think the subject is simply too stark and obscure to discuss at length. It's heavy, dark, and conclusive. It just has no real appeal in social gatherings, any more than one's bowel movements would.

I don't think hedonism is an answer to the question.. but a love of self, a love of nature and as few regrets as possible are (I think) the personal ingredients for a relatively nice death. — Marcus de Brun

I don't doubt that. But, what is this grounded on? The satisfaction of wants and needs? Again, psychologism. There's more to life than the brute calculus of a utilitarian.

In that sense, I think the subject is simply too stark and obscure to discuss at length. It's heavy, dark, and conclusive. It just has no real appeal in social gatherings, any more than one's bowel movements would.

I disagree, I think death has only lost its appeal because technology removes us from its reality.

Ones bowel movements are very interesting, but equally removed from the general dialogue because of a delusion of human sophistication that is bourne out of technology.

The ancients had a great respect and enthusiasm for bowel motions and the Druids or Shamans of old Ireland once practiced the noble art of 'gastromancy' predicting the future and communicating with the spirit world through and interpretation of flatulence and bowel sounds.

When our 'sophistication' and romance with technology comes to an end... when it is recognized as the cause of our undoing.. we shall return to a worship of the natural.. a dialogue with death... and we might well listen to the wisdom of our bowels.

M

I don't doubt that. But, what is this grounded on? The satisfaction of wants and needs? Again, psychologism.

Is there something more to the world... other than your own wants and needs?

M

Is there something more to the world... other than your own wants and needs? — Marcus de Brun

Yes, surely. That's the mystical aspect of life. Spirituality and all that jazz.

These qualities make death extremely difficult to contemplate or to share. — gloaming

Yet, we do share them. And we can talk successfully about them. They're relatable by nature.

"...
The ancients had a great respect and enthusiasm for bowel motions and the Druids or Shamans of old Ireland once practiced the noble art of 'gastromancy' predicting the future and communicating with the spirit world through and interpretation of flatulence and bowel sounds..."

When we become the 'ancients', I don't think that those who come after us, even if more enlightened, will have any stronger a penchant for discussing death than we do at present, and for the same reasons. It just isn't that interesting, even if it is definable and describable in a one-sided-view way.

"...When our 'sophistication' and romance with technology comes to an end... when it is recognized as the cause of our undoing.. we shall return to a worship of the natural.. a dialogue with death... and we might well listen to the wisdom of our bowels."

Who dialogs with death now, and who did among the 'ancients' you speak of? I think technology tells us much more, and reliably, about our bowels than did the musings of the 'ancients' who merely drew sticks through scat and human waste in order to predict outcomes. The lowly microscope, now 400 years old and hardly a technical darling except to those who know what it's good for, has shown us more about bowel movements than the sticks and the Mark I Eyeball ever has. In any case, it's beside the point...death...and bears no light to it.

You seem to be undoing yourself because you contradict, just above, what you set out to ask about as an artefact of modern life. How can it be taboo and at the same time, "...we do share them. And we can talk successfully about them..." Or is it your thesis that we can/and should discuss death, but it's a taboo? If that is the case, I don't see evidence for it. There are many books about it, most responsible adults over the age of 50 have wills and discuss them with their children or heirs, youtube has many videos about assisted suicide and other videos about dying which seem heavily subscribed and which draw many appreciative comments. Any child who has buried a parent, while not especially endeared to death, is at least more comfortable with it and has had experience with its aftermath and finality....and with the emotions it elicits.

I guess I reject your premise that it is a taboo subject. Difficult, perhaps, not conducive to a parlor game party surely, and best avoided when attempting to seduce your partner, but otherwise....it's just a fact of life.

You seem to be undoing yourself because you contradict, just above, what you set out to ask about as an artefact of modern life. How can it be taboo and at the same time, "...we do share them. And we can talk successfully about them..." — gloaming

Perhaps it's the target audience that my professor was worried might cause distress. If your 18-23 years old then you don't want to think about death that much. I do agree that it can become a national topic in the case of Switzerland for example. The Puritan and warped USA is different though.

If your 18-23 years old then you don't want to think about death that much. — Posty McPostface

Yeah, well... the 18-23 year olds probably don't want to think about the balance of payments problem; the state of American railroad unions; the annual Christmas bird count; commodity price supports; lice, bedbugs, and tapeworms; opera; and so on. Why should death be any different?

Yeah, well... the 18-23 year olds probably don't want to think about the balance of payments problem; the state of American railroad unions; the annual Christmas bird count; commodity price supports; lice, bedbugs, and tapeworms; opera; and so on. Why should death be any different? — Bitter Crank

It could be that we're a generation of snowflakes. I suppose this is true to some degree. I don't mind talking about death; but, it's inherently more emotional than talking about the state of affairs of our union or the debt from college or the commodity price supports. :smile:

Statistics are in favor of young people not thinking about death a lot. If one grows up in a healthy working class/middle class community, death will occur primarily among the elderly. Some will die of accident or disease (at any age) but most young people will not be close to that person. For those young people who are close, it will be to varying degrees traumatic.

The rate of death in some communities is much higher than others. A young black person living in a high crime neighborhood is more likely to know someone who died by gunfire than a young white person living in a calm low-crime neighborhood.

Another factor in how often one will be confronted by death is how much community life one participates in. Many families have fairly limited community involvement. They don't belong to churches, social organizations, don't participate in scouting, extra-curricular activities at school, and so on. They are fairly isolated. That decreases the likelihood of knowing people who die.

So... they haven't encountered people dying; they are young; why would they talk a lot about death?

All that aside, I think it is good for people to think about the future deaths of themselves and people they know and love (or like a lot). Sooner or later, it's guaranteed to happen. Becoming familiar with the "idea" of death makes it less scary. Thinking about what people go through on their way to the grave should help clarify their thinking about what they themselves are willing--or not willing--to put up with.

For instance, if one is diagnosed with a fatal disease, it isn't necessary to "wage a war against one's cancer". When people are diagnosed with cancer at a probable terminal stage, radical treatment (surgery, radiation, chemotherapy, etc.) may not be worth it in terms of added suffering. If one hasn't thought about death and dying until that moment in the doctor's office where you hear "the prognosis is not good", it will be very difficult to make congruent personal decisions in the days and weeks ahead.

I'm not saying that one should be ready to throw in the sponge at the first mention of cancer, heart disease, COPD, or various other pieces of bad news. But thinking about death and dying ahead of time will enable one to make a more measured response.

A friend of mine who had become immobile because of obesity, circulatory problems, and injured joints, was not enthusiastic about life. When she was diagnosed with uterine cancer (usually a fairly slow, curable cancer) she decided to not get treatment. She felt she had nothing to live for. She had, in fact, passed the circumstance where she said she would commit suicide (if she couldn't get around and take care of herself). Unfortunately, she found that once one is in that situation, suicide is much more difficult to arrange. Even if she had been willing, she would never have been able to get to a bridge, crawl over the railing, and drown herself. Her collection of drugs had been confiscated by a nurse (suicide risk), so just letting the cancer go was her "best option". She died in her mid 60s.

She had been a nurse, knew what she was in for, and pursued it anyway. I had known her for 40 some years, and her actions were entirely consistent with what she had always expressed.

Her choice was suitable for her. Other people have to face their own circumstances and decide what to do.

Well, animals mourn and are not fearful of death. It's just a natural thing for them that they witness every day. Animals can become depressed or sad or anxious; but, never fearful of death. Is it our self-awareness that comes into play that makes us fear death? — Posty McPostface

I wouldn't think so, but it may be the case given the sheer complexity built into our self-awareness.

My cat is self-aware in some rudimentary sense unlike human self-awareness. At least that is what her use of a mirror shows. She knows that that's her in the mirror. She also knows how to look into the mirror and see something behind her. She looks at me through the mirror. I call her, and she then turns around and looks directly at me. That aside...

I think the human fear of death is akin in a specific way to many of our other fears... the unknown and unfamiliar.

My cat is self-aware in some rudimentary sense unlike human self-awareness. At least that is what her use of a mirror shows. She knows that that's her in the mirror. She also knows how to look into the mirror and see something behind her. She looks at me through the mirror. I call her, and she then turns around and looks directly at me. That aside... — creativesoul

There is a very narrow spectrum of animals that are capable of recognizing themselves in a mirror. I don't think cats are complex enough to fit the description.

Powerful story. I'm sorry to hear that she decided to go out like that. Being a nurse, I don't know what the suicide statistics for a female nurse in the US; but, sounds like a rare case to me. I know veterinarians and dentists score the highest though.

One of her fears was that surgery would result in more widespread and more difficult cancer. What used to be -- maybe still is -- a common way of operating on uterine cancer did sometimes result in new cancers in the abdomen. Had she been in better physical shape to start with, she might have viewed things differently. But being unable to walk as far as around the block, unable to climb stairs, difficulty even getting in and out of a cab, and all sorts of pride issues... she was pretty demoralized. And the future was downhill from there.

It was always difficult to figure her out. On the one hand, her assessments of other people were very rational; when it came to herself, she wasn't quite so clear. But too, her options in life were very limited. Minimal income, minimal options, inability to engage in life the way she was accustomed to (theater, travel, parties, etc.)--what was left for her? In her view, not much.

Yes, it was difficult; but dying is sometimes prolonged -- years of physical deterioration and disability before the final crisis. My mother declined for... maybe a decade? before she died at 87. Life just became more challenging. Some people are lucky. They are lively and mentally sound into advanced old age (90s, 100) and then die after short illnesses. There are several 90+ people at church, one 104, who are still very much engaged in life.

But "super seniors" are not the rule. Most people die before the reach that age, and if they are 95, are not in great shape.

From Merriam-Webster Online.

Death:

1 a : a permanent cessation of all vital (see vital 2a) functions : the end of life ·The cause of death has not been determined.
·managed to escape death
·prisoners were put to death
·death threats
— compare brain death

b : an instance of dying ·a disease causing many deaths
·lived there until her death

Also:
4 : the state of being no longer alive : the state of being dead

I think you folks are talking about something else.

So, why is it taboo to talk about death? — Posty McPostface

I think it comes down to the fundamental reason that anyone who knows how it truly ends cannot communicate back to us, in a PROVABLE, scientific manner, even though I am fully convinced about spirits who have passed over, still communicating just through different means.

Posty, I am really glad you are taking this class because I am intrigued as to what they are going to teach and how much they will cover the "after" that happens after we cease living. My Mom working Hospice for 15 yrs gave me a wealth of true, unaltered recounts of how humans really cease living, if there are spirits, what it takes to release them and who is truly in charge of the departing process. So know I look forward to hearing about your class and your professor.
Having said that: there is a bumper sticker that I read years ago that still seems appropriate:
"I don't know and neither do you"