And the only reason I can't agree with you is because you haven't even defined "gender" in any coherent way.That there is the primary point of disagreement. — Moliere
I don't see a difference between wanting to be treated as a male/female vs man/woman. Look it up in the dictionary. A woman is an adult female human being, while a man is an adult male human being.If someone is male, but wishes to be treated as a woman, I don't see an issue. If someone is female, but wishes to be treated as a man, no problem.
But if they are male and claim to be female, or if they are female and claim to be male - then there is something worthy of further discussion. — Banno
And the only reason I can't agree with you is because you haven't even defined "gender" in any coherent way. — Harry Hindu
Let's dismantle the distinction between man and woman (gender, not sex). — Banno
So the craziness of the trans-gender is perhaps rather a sane response to the craziness of society, and 'we' had best try and accommodate them within our social constructs. — unenlightened
And, Moliere, I understand the notion of gender as a patriarchal construct. — Banno
SO let me put the problem in terms of the critique of that patriarchal construct. Let's dismantle the distinction between man and woman (gender, not sex). Yet Transgender people insist on that distinction.
Where do they fit?
That's because we aren't disagreeing that sex is anything more than biology. We are in disagreement whether or not gender is anything more than biology or the arbitrary ways humans expect the different sexes to behave within any culture.I haven't defined sex, either, but you don't have a problem there. — Moliere
And I've been pointing out that your way of defining "gender" is incoherent. Doesn't that mean that you should maybe try a different tactic rather than throwing up your hands and blaming me for being to ignorant to understand your whack wisdom? Sounds like religion to me.I've been using a more ostensive approach -- by denoting the various things I mean to indicate with the words I am using. — Moliere
You can persuade reasonable people with reasonable evidence. I was a "born-again" Christian, took my Bible to school, involved in my church, etc. but I began to question the very basis of what I believed. Eventually, after many years, I considered myself an atheist. I did a complete 180. I was persuaded with better arguments and consistent answers. Have you ever done that? Can you be persuaded, Moliere?Now I will just say here that I don't expect to persuade you. But identifying where disagreement springs from is still a win, plus it helps us to better see our own beliefs. — Moliere
This is just another poorly veiled ad hominem attack. How does it follow from refusing to make the same distinction you are making to my arguments aren't worth considering?So Harry Hindu refuses to make the distinction we are using in this discussion. That means he just drops out of contention. He is not saying anything worthy of much consideration. — Banno
We are in disagreement whether or not gender is anything more than biology or the arbitrary ways humans expect the different sexes to behave within any culture. — Harry Hindu
Doesn't that mean that you should maybe try a different tactic rather than throwing up your hands and blaming me for being to ignorant to understand your whack wisdom? — Harry Hindu
You can persuade reasonable people with reasonable evidence. I was a "born-again" Christian, took my Bible to school, involved in my church, etc. when I began to question the very basis of what I believed. Eventually, after many years, I considered myself an atheist. I did a complete 180. I was persuaded with better arguments and consistent answers. Have you ever done that? Can you be persuaded, Moliere? — Harry Hindu
Then how is it that the gender of an individual is set by what they feel, and not their sexual characteristics? — Banno
Can one know what it is like to be a man? Or what it is like to be a woman? How, if one can have no more than one's own experiences? — Banno
Perhaps it is that the gender of an individual is set by their mental and emotional characteristics, while their sexual characteristics are physical, 'set' by biology? — Pattern-chaser
gender is a social construct, and that means it isn't set by sexual characteristics or by what they feel, but by what we (society) feel. — unenlightened
One resists identification with an alternative identification; — unenlightened
Seriously? — Pattern-chaser
You may think that "an alternative identification" is your private enterprise; yet, it should be examined how private it is. Almost any identification nowadays is a way of getting involved into a socio-political
mass movement. — Number2018
a science of the mind would allow for an engineering of the mind. We're just not there yet. — Moliere
But lose the paranoia, dude, penis amputation is not a mass movement. — unenlightened
Seriously? So those with gender dysphoria are actually just making a lifestyle choice, based on what society thinks about gender? You don't put yourself through gender reassignment surgery unless you're really serious. Really, personally serious. — Pattern-chaser
Just as up until recently you couldn't have ADHD. — Baden
So we make sense of gender in terms of sexual characteristics?
Then how is it that the gender of an individual is set by what they feel, and not their sexual characteristics? — Banno
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