Willing it further is the result of the inability to accept the emotion. It is the result of finding more meaning in the emotion, the reference by which life is understood. Negative emotions become a reference of meaning, and the willing further of depression is essentially an outcry. It is the fact that one cannot find meaning elsewhere, and they cannot find a will to integrate it and empower the personality.

So, it's an endless spiral out of control? Perhaps, the issue then past willpower is control? — Posty McPostface

One side is the reflected judgement, the other is the urge.
How long could you blink with one eye first and then the other instead of blinking simultaneously?

I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Please elaborate on what you have in mind.

It is a spiral out of control for the personality, for the personality which would be a lack of totality in relation to the negative emotions that have more power and more of a control on the personality. Nietzsche would say to empower the personality by all means... Which would be the integration of emotions into the totality of the personality, empowering not emotions themselves but that which they become a part of constituting, namely the personality. — Blue Lux

And, how does one go about this? How do you integrate those emotions that are a drain on one's willpower?

I personally, in my depression, have found myself wallowing in it — Blue Lux

We are sorry to inform you that Mr. Posty McPostface has established a firm claim to the unique characteristic of "Wallowing". "Wallowing -- it's what I do." That was in his pig avatar phase. Perhaps he has relinquished the claim, but probably not.

Depression is willed because one does not want to free that emotion. — Blue Lux

I'm not buying this theory.

I thought depression was remedied by realizing those feelings, and not suppressing them? — Posty McPostface

"realizing those feelings" (whatever they are) makes them available for evaluation and intervention. Just realizing them doesn't make them go away.

The reason they call it "depression" and not something else is that "depression" is a dysfunctional, lowering of mental/emotional functioning. Depression can be mild (feeling sort of blue these days); moderate (I can't sleep, can't get my work done, i feel awful); severe (Maybe I should kill myself; I have a gun and nobody cares, anyway); and terminal (catetonia -- one is emotionally, cognitively, physically unresponsive, and if this goes on long enough, one will die.

Many people with depression actually exhibit quite a bit of will power. They do not feel like it, but they make themselves get out of bed, take care of the children, do their work, take the dog for a walk (the dog isn't depressed, after all and insists on it), and so forth. One can not will one's self out of depression -- I don't care how much of an übermensch/Superman one thinks one is. What one can will are decisions: changes in life that will perhaps make one feel better. Quitting a bad job, moving into a better neighborhood with less dirt, noise, disorder; quitting a bad relationship; and so on. None of these sorts of changes are guaranteed to make one less depressed, but wallowing (sorry Posty) in the same shithole month after month is certainly not going to result in progress.

Some people seem to have depression which is moderate to severe, is not caused by circumstances, and will not improve with a change in circumstances. They may have to receive extra care, and these days, medication and/or electroshock therapy (which seems to help severe and terminal depression).

I could provide a personal example, but I am very reluctant to post my own experiences.

"Wallowing -- it's what I do." That was in his pig avatar phase. Perhaps he has relinquished the claim, but probably not. — Bitter Crank

I haven't wallowed all that much today. Perhaps, a little; but, significantly less today. :blush:

wallowing (sorry Posty) in the same shithole month after month is certainly not going to result in progress. — Bitter Crank

All good. I think the Prozac is kicking in so, no harm was done... :blush:

I could provide a personal example, but I am very reluctant to post my own experiences. — Blue Lux

Go ahead. Nobody's judging.

What on earth is keeping you from disclosing your experiences? You are posting behind an opaque screen.

I'm not buying this theory — Bitter Crank

No one asked you to buy it. No one asked you to completely adopt it.
Perhaps you could elaborate on it and tell how it could be false or incomplete or not taking into consideration other important factors of a depression.

Yes, depression has a lot of will. I will reference Freud again. "Depression is not a sign of weakness; it is a sign one has been trying too hard for too long."

And btw, I have based this conception not on my own accord, but on personal experience in helping my own depression. And this was done by an analysis of Freud, Jung and Lacan.

Many people with depression actually exhibit quite a bit of will power. They do not feel like it, but they make themselves get out of bed, take care of the children, do their work, take the dog for a walk (the dog isn't depressed, after all and insists on it), and so forth. — Bitter Crank

Yes, they are compelled to do these things, otherwise, the anxiety, which is the identical twin of depression, tends to kick in. But, I would surmise that depression is robbing one's self of their willpower. As to why is a general mystery still...

I am very reluctant to say that electro shock therapy does anything other than Force one out of their feelings and thoughts altogether. This is not a therapy as much as it is an imposition by people who want to make money.

I fail to see the benefits of depresson — Aleksander Kvam

I've been depressed for a long time and I haven't seen one single benefit from it. Disease is not beneficial. Disease is harmful. We don't have to find some hidden silver lining under the shit pile.

And in thinking like that you will never change to experience something different. You will be constantly in the determined configuration of needing something beyond you to lift yourself out. It is you that will have to grab the rope to pull yourself out of the hole.
Depression is the result of strong emotions. Strong emotions are inevitably an expression of the depth of a person. There is much a person can do with depression. Just because you have not personally witnessed a benefit to 'depression' does not mean that there is absolutely no benefit. The benefit will be in pulling yourself out. You are in a hole and you can beat yourself up about it and say that you do not have the ability to get out... But once you find a way out you will not be downing yourself anymore. You will premise, pre reflectively, your totality and realize your strength.

Years ago, I would have agreed with you. It was used far to often on far too many people with no observable benefit, other than that it may have made patients more manageable because they were in a daze afterwards. However, after ECT became anathema and was seldom performed, it was found that severely to terminally depressed patients didn't respond to medication, did respond to ECT.

ECT is more complicated than it looks. For instance, most patients are properly sedated before they receive ECT. However, it was found that severely depressed patients with certain kinds of neurological disorders responded much better to ECT if they received a small dose of caffeine first. I don't know why the caffeine helped, but it did.

Still, most people who are depressed, or have other mental illnesses, are NOT candidates for ECT.

Depression has also been described as having NO emotions. like being in a coma or being sedated or something. Just throwing it out there.

That would be apathy... Which is often a result of the struggle of depression... But does not define depression.

"Depression is not a sign of weakness; it is a sign one has been trying too hard for too long." — Blue Lux

This ties in with the observation that depressed people are often perfectionists. The set very high standards for themselves which they can not fulfill, and feel like failures for not achieving the undoable. I don't know why depression stimulates perfectionist tendencies, but it seems to in many people -- it certainly did for me. By nature I am a big picture person and do not like dealing with the details that are involved in perfection. "Close enough for government work" is more my approach.

Another problem with "depression" (Freud, Jung, and World Congress of Psychoanalysts not withstanding) is that a lot of things get labeled as "depression" which are not. For instance, many people are...

intensely frustrated by their circumstances
very angry
over-worked
lonely
terminally bored
deeply in debt
drink too much
use too many drugs
grew up or are living in chaotic families and do not know what "normal" looks like
very angry
unemployed
socially marginalized and excluded

and so on and so forth. Various combinations of these conditions can look like vague mental illness or "depression". Medication isn't going to help much. Xanax may calm you down; Prozac may or may not make you feel better. In general, one won't feel better until one does something about the problems in ones life that are unsatisfactory.

These people aren't sick -- they are more likely just screwed, or are very unlucky and unfortunate.

Returning to the OP. Why is depression so deeply intertwined with pessimism? What's the deal with the causal relationship between the two?

The DSM needs a category of people who are the recipients of very unfortunate events. Let's call this category "Shafted by Bad Luck (SBL Syndrome). Billions of people are shafted and screwed every year, and many of them never quite get back to normal.

Let's say that one loved literature, was encouraged to major in English and later got an MFA in poetry writing, but then finds that one can't make anywhere close to enough money to pay one's college loans back (and one can't declare bankruptcy to get rid of them). Our well-read poet is now working as a bartender and a waiter. He feels totally screwed. And guess what -- he is. He is suffering from SBL Syndrome. He should have majored in molecular biology or gone to trade school.

Here's another case: A couple didn't do a great job raising their children. It's hard to tell what went wrong, but they're not terribly responsible and seem to need continuing parental help, even though the children are now in their mid-30s. The parents, meantime, are getting old and feel they should retire. But they can't because they helped their children too much. They are tired, hopeless, peeved, and dissatisfied -- as well they should be. They too are victims of SBL Syndrome. Maybe they shafted themselves through the best of intentions, but they are broke now, and too old to do anything about it.

:lol:

If it itches, you scratch. If you should not scratch there is a problem: You want to anyways.
Katharsis is said to help dealing with emotional conflicts and surely the urge to just bemoan one's fate is understandable in our culture. Nietzsche (more or less) pointed out that thanks to cultural achievements you can virtually always feel sad and thereby suffering itself managed to become some kind of positive value: If you suffer you must be good man. Especially if there is no real reason to. It indicates high culture - just take a look at gothics. The fineness of the princess is indicated by her being affected by the pea under several mattresses.

Maybe the brain is just not producing enough good-time neurotransmitters and is instead producing too many "we're all fucked" neurotransmitters. The more technical terms are serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. Either way, we can't really measure the neurotransmitter levels in the structures of the brain where they operate.

All I know is that when I stopped feeling depressed a few years ago, I changed from reflexive pessimism ("that will never work") to a much more hopeful and positive outlook ("Hey, give it a try.") My opinions haven't changed -- I still think capitalism totally sucks, I think global warming will probably kill us off, but in the meantime, I feel great.

Laugh -- but it wasn't a joke -- those two cases were actual people who were actually shafted, totally screwed, and might as well throw in the sponge.

As far as I'm aware, depression is reflexively not an itch. We shirk away from a problem we face due to depression and tend to bury the issue under a pile of rationalizations.

I wonder how much of our world views are shaped by emotions. There is a term for this. It's called emotional reasoning; but, seems to fade away when the level of abstraction increases in some dispute.

It's strange to think that your perception can change while your world views remain the same. Meaning, you can still believe we're all screwed by climate change, and still have an optimistic outlook on some other issues? An overly compartmentalized mind?

Lol!!! Agreed. SBL needs to be diagnosed more frequently.

@Posty McPostface @Heiko

I was in a relationship with a person whom I loved very deeply. It was the first time I really knew I loved someone in that kind of way. I screwed up do to my impulsive behavior and I lost their trust. I could not forgive myself. And though I did everything I could possibly do to try and get that trust back and prove to them that I did love them and would probably never feel that way about anyone ever again... It didn't work. They abandoned me at the lowest point of my life, having had no family and becoming homeless, while also being addicted to drugs.
Since I was 12 I was depressed due to too much thinking about my life, and realizing the troubles of the world, and realizing my impotence. I suffer from PTSD as well, due to childhood abuse.
I thought the world could get no worse and I attempted suicide. I woke up a few days later on the verge of death. I am not sure how I survived... I took 180mg of oxycodone, 15mg of Xanax and about 30 other pills that were prescribed to me. And I did a few shots and chugged a beer on top of all that.
After I woke up I was still depressed. But I realized through this depression and through all of this how strong I really was, being able to take care of myself ALONE after I should have been dead.
I realized that these emotions that had been affecting me... I never accepted them. I never accepted their reality. I always could not come to grips with their actuality.
In integrating these emotions into myself, I empowered myself and I become autonomous and independent. I realized that I could conquer my own world, and I didn't have to be chained and unfree like a prisoner to my experiences. I realized that my experiences were me. I realized that my emotions were me. I no longer held onto this ideal me that I knew now to be an illusion.
I remember staring at myself in the mirror. I remember hearing music like I had never heard music ever before. So much then came to me and overwhelmed me. Tears of joy and happiness came to me realizing that I could be and that I didn't need anything but me in this life. I could become to be and be okay with that realizing that I am the final cause of my life.
I grew.
I stumbled a few more times but ever since then I have realized to always accept my desires, regardless of how contradictory and strange they are, or how irrational they are. We are at base irrational. We are emotional... No... We are arational!
I lost everything and I woke up to realizing that I had everything that I would ever need. And now I am a completely different person. I have all of my past within me, but it does not define me. Nothing defines me. I am indefinable. I am all of my possibilities. I am radically free. This is what diverted my life from depression.

2 + 2 = 4 whether I like it or not. It isn't that I am indifferent to, or upbeat about global warming. I'm not. There are a lot of doom and gloom scenarios that I think are going to come true. I find them ranging from bad to awful to horrifying. So, how can I "feel" upbeat at the same time. Well, the same way everybody else can: The boat is slowly sinking, but in the meantime service is excellent.

I also feel like I've lived my life. I'll accept more good years, for sure, but I know that my death is not all that far away -- a lot of these things will happen after I'm dust. Were I 30 years old, everything being equal, this all would be a lot harder to maintain. There were times during the the 1980s AIDS crisis that I thought I was probably doomed to die in just a few years -- wouldn't make it to 50, maybe. Lots of guys I knew were dying. I am still surprised I didn't get AIDS.

Maybe I am sometimes confusing "relinquishment" with "optimism". I can let go of some concerns, because they are history (like bad jobs), or they are beyond my influence (like CO2 emissions). Yes, I recycle, compost, and add as little garbage to the pile as I can, like any responsible person does. But I know the major reductions have to be decided by people way above me. I've let go of that problem. I've let go of the problems of the Church, too. Capitalism? Not going away tomorrow. Socialism? Dream on. Etc.

Ever thought of writing a book?

I wrote one about 80,000 words. I lost about half of it back in the blast but I am planning on making it way better. You should write one.