Anyone who supports Trump has a twisted, deprived sense of morality (or simply none at all)

Very much agree.

Populists don't rely on mere policy positions to get elected. — praxis

Who does? Everyone uses the Dark Arts. But policies do matter too, and Trump's policies were certainly a major part of what got him elected, and Adams has always said that.

Who does? Everyone uses the Dark Arts. But policies do matter too, and Trump's policies were certainly a major part of what got him elected, and Adams has always said that. — gurugeorge

not sure I remember Trump actually articulating one complete policy during the campaign. Not really a detail type of guy it appears.

Although I think it's a good idea to refrain from hyperbolic statements against Trump, and at the risk of committing a reductio ad hitlerium fallacy, it is rather interesting that some of his tactics are consistent with the advice of Adolf Hitler regarding propaganda (see these two quotes from Mein Kampf). I bring this up because Adams has frequently extolled Trump's talent as a "master persuader".

That it is not the growing hurricane it appears to be. The round-up of undocumented residents by ICE (or as they might be called: American Revival Storm Enforcement, or ARSE) is unsettling for a lot of people, even those that believe something must be done about immigration — 0 thru 9

The creation of sanctuary cities began before Trump took office.

Do you not think that those who implemented such a plan did so based on what they felt was happening at the time during whoever was Commander-in-Chief?

The creation of sanctuary cities began before Trump took office. — raza

Of course, as well as ICE and FEMA. I see more similarities than differences between the last 5-8 US Presidential administrations. I would generally agree with the view expressed in Klein’s The Shock Doctrine that the tried and true strategies of “disaster capitalism” have found a home in government policy and military actions.

Almost everyone has taken their eye off the ball. Wikileaks, before the election, described how Hillary was election tampering in terms of the Democrat party nomination process. Bernie should have been the nominee, but Hillary illegally hijacked the DNC funds and rigged the nomination process with the super delegate scam. Nobody ever denied what was leaked was not true. The focus of the Democrats, instead, was it was the doing of Trump and is alliance with Russia. The left, along with fake news, has been running a Trump centric smoke screen, to take the heat off the crimes in their own party.

Further digging into Hillary bring us to her e-mail server, which she deleted in spite of an order from Congress. This was another crime. If this had been by Trump to Mueller what would have happened? The fix was in.

Then we go back to the sale of uranium to the Russians, whose purchasing delegation was accused of bribery and racketeering. Mueller was the head of the FBI at the time and did not make this known to Congress before the sale. He was protecting Hillary, Bill and Barrack, since the Clintons were to get a large Russian donation for their foundation. Talk about Russian collusion. Russian-Trump collusion is a distraction away from DNC-Russian collusion.

Then there was all the cash sent to Iran. What was the middle man cut from that untraceable cash? How much did the Clintons snd Obama's get and where is it hidden? That was a perfect way to skim the tax payer. By the way the Democrats reacted to Trump dealing with Iran, it is possible the hidden skim was still in Iran and was spread far and wide even through Europe.

The entire Trump soap opera is a distraction to hide all these real crimes. If the soap opera stops real questions will be asked and two former presidents could be on the chopping block. The hate mongering is there to blind the left to their own dirt.

The goal of the left is to use the daily soap opera to take people's mind off Democrat problems. The delay has been effective for over a year, but desperation is setting in, since it is not separating Trump from his followers. It is even backfiring and causing support from moderate Democrats. Trump followers are aware of the dual standard of injustice and are not fooled by the soap opera.

There's nothing deranged about attacking Trump's immigration policies, which forces family separation, or departs people who have lived and contributed to this country for decades.

That issue has been resolved, it was resolved rather quickly and he worked to resolve it. But you're talking about it as he is trying to separate the families and I just don't understand why. It's also been done like that for decades but you're hellbent on wringing his neck over it.

Nothing deranged about attacking Trump's foreign policy, which disparages long-term allies, and flatters dictators.

He hasn't disparaged allies, that's dramatic nonsense. Relationships aren't always smiles and hugs, if you've ever had family you'd know better, sometimes you have to handle problems... that's how healthy relationships are maintained. If you just smile and gloss over things, and pretend everything's fine, problems linger and it actually kills your relationships. Shows how much you really understand life. And the idea that he should abuse dictators and not be diplomatic with them is actually absurd. You may as well say that peace talks are a bad thing, or peace with North Korea is a bad thing. Do you really see the world as a playground of children hurling blame at one another? Good thing you aren't in charge!

Nothing deranged about attacking Trump's economic policy, which includes a tax cut that overwhelmingly favors the rich over the poor and middle class,

No, the tax cuts hurt the lower and middle class in the short term (via restricted government programs)... and government benefits help the lower and middle class in the short term. But in the long term the tax cuts grow the GDP, create jobs and stave off the US defaulting on its debt, which preserves social security and medicare... thus they help the lower and middle class in the long term - social security and medicare help the lower and middle class; a working economy helps the lower and middle class. And we've said this many times.

or his ridiculous trade war with a variety of countries, which will only hurt small business and cut jobs.

No, increasing tariffs causes a variety of complex effects throughout the whole economy. It actually doesn't "only hurt small business", it effects alot of things.

Nothing deranged about attacking Trump when he criticizes Black Americans for peacefully kneeling during the American anthem

No, those are people with no gratitude for what they have hopping on anti-American bandwagons and setting a horrible example for the black youth in this country. Black youth are 70% without fathers in the home and are driven to the fringes by the corrupt culture ... they need some parental figures to guide them.... For so many black youth in this country their only parental guidance comes from rappers yelling about capping thugs.... They don't need foodball players feeding them more antisocial sentiment.

but pardons Joe Arpaio who engaged in extreme racial profiling of Latin Americans.

I wonder how you feel about airport security prioritizing Muslims over non-Muslims in searches? In Germany and other European countries the airport security actually actively profiles and they have the best airport security with the lowest rates of smuggling and crime getting through their ports in the world.

Nothing deranged about attacking Trump's comments on women when he gloats about sexual assault

Learn what an actual sexual assault is.

and threatens to overturn Roe v. Wade.

He has every right to appoint a conservative judge and every conservative president before him has appointed conservative judges, likewise every liberal president has appointed liberal judges. This is why we call it Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Nothing deranged about attacking Trump when he claims that there are "very fine people on both sides", during a Neo-Nazi protest.

It wasn't actually just Nazis at the protest.

There is nothing deranged about having the moral clarity to see that these are morally abhorrent and having mettle to call out or fight these injustices. The idea of 'Trump Derangement Syndrome" is nothing more than a sick, vapid attempt to normalize Trump's immorality. This is simply gaslighting.

There is because you've stirred yourself into believing you're some hero and yet your points are easily countered, you should have been able to self-criticize and round out your thinking more than this, meanwhile when people make the points you ignore them and repeat yourself... it's called TDS.

@frank A portion of your first reply to this thread has been posted on The Philosophy Forum Facebook page. Congratulations and Thank you for your contribution!

That issue has been resolved, it was resolved rather quickly and he worked to resolve it. But you're talking about it as he is trying to separate the families and I just don't understand why. It's also been done like that for decades but you're hellbent on wringing his neck over it. — ibrust

Absolutely none of this is true. There are a fantastic number of publications investigating the zero-tolerance policy, which was started under the Trump administration. I suggest you read up on it. It has not been "done like this for decades", and it hasn't been "resolved".

He hasn't disparaged allies, that's dramatic nonsense. Relationships aren't always smiles and hugs, if you've ever had family you'd know better, sometimes you have to handle problems... that's how healthy relationships are maintained. If you just smile and gloss over things, and pretend everything's fine, problems linger and it actually kills your relationships. Shows how much you really understand life. And the idea that he should abuse dictators and not be diplomatic with them is actually absurd. You may as well say that peace talks are a bad thing, or peace with North Korea is a bad thing. Do you really see the world as a playground of children hurling blame at one another? Good thing you aren't in charge! — ibrust

Wow you really digressed into an absurd strawman didn't you? Trump continually attacks the EU, Germany, Canada, their politicians, etc. He has attacked American institutions and federal department. When you claim that Germany is "totally controlled by Russia", that's disparagement. It's not "dramatic nonsense". When you claim that the media is the "enemy of the American people", that's dangerously disparaging. Unless of course the meaning of disparagement looses any and all meaning, out of convenience to support Trump.

No, the tax cuts hurt the lower and middle class in the short term (via restricted government programs)... and government benefits help the lower and middle class in the short term. But in the long term the tax cuts grow the GDP, create jobs and stave off the US defaulting on its debt, which preserves social security and medicare... thus they help the lower and middle class in the long term - social security and medicare help the lower and middle class; a working economy helps the lower and middle class. And we've said this many times. — ibrust

The individual tax cuts expire in the 2020s, and each year the majority of the middle class will receive less and less from their tax cuts, until it eventually expires. However, the tax cut will continue permanently for corporations, and wealthier individuals will receive a larger cut. And ultimately the added $1.4 trillion deficit that the tax cuts will produce will be (already have been) leveraged as a clarion call for cutting social services in the name of the deficit, primarily affecting the poor and middle class. The 2017 tax cut was based on the Kansas tax cut, which was an abysmal failure, and had to be repealed.

No, those are people with no gratitude for what they have hopping on anti-American bandwagons and setting a horrible example for the black youth in this country. Black youth are 70% without fathers in the home and are driven to the fringes by the corrupt culture ... they need some parental figures to guide them.... For so many black youth in this country their only parental guidance comes from rappers yelling about capping thugs.... They don't need foodball players feeding them more antisocial sentiment. — ibrust

Great racist stuff here :up:

I wonder how you feel about airport security prioritizing Muslims over non-Muslims in searches? In Germany and other European countries the airport security actually actively profiles and they have the best airport security with the lowest rates of smuggling and crime getting through their ports in the world. — ibrust

I'm actually more concerned with far-right extremists, rather than radical Islamist extremists, given that the former have been responsible for far more attacks than the latter.

It wasn't actually just Nazis at the protest. — ibrust

So? Are you comparing Nazis with Antifa, an organization you probably only heard about via the protest, in which a woman was killed because a Nazi drove his car into the crowd?

Great racist stuff here :up:

You're racist, you try to manipulate black people into liking you by catering to what you think they want you to say rather than saying the truth. It's proof that you see them in terms of their race. In the process you show that you have no real concern for any of the problems in the black community as you dismiss all the issues that were raised. All this claiming to be sympathetic to blacks is just your effort to keep them under your thumb, you actually do nothing for them and have no interest in helping them. And they know that.

Absolutely none of this is true. There are a fantastic number of publications investigating the zero-tolerance policy, which was started under the Trump administration. I suggest you read up on it. It has not been "done like this for decades", and it hasn't been "resolved".

No he actually signed an executive order halting the family separation policy days after this became a public outcry, here is the video of that happening, see for yourself:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?447373-1/president-trump-signs-executive-order-halting-family-separation-policy

Wow you really digressed into an absurd strawman didn't you? Trump continually attacks the EU, Germany, Canada, their politicians, etc. He has attacked American institutions and federal department. When you claim that Germany is "totally controlled by Russia", that's disparagement. It's not "dramatic nonsense". When you claim that the media is the "enemy of the American people", that's dangerously disparaging. Unless of course the meaning of disparagement looses any and all meaning, out of convenience to support Trump.

It's like nothing I said to you registered - did I not just explain how sometimes, in relationships, people have to call one another out and address the problems...? Did I not explain how glossing over those problems and brushing them under the rug actually damages relationships long term? i.e. damages the alliance long term.? It's like the words I say don't have any effect, you just repeat yourself and ignore what I said to you. This is why the term "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is useful, when I engage with you people reasoning goes out the window.

So? Are you comparing Nazis with Antifa, an organization you probably only heard about via the protest, in which a woman was killed because a Nazi drove his car into the crowd?

So he claimed there were good people at the rally, you said it was a Nazi rally, I said there were people who were not Nazis at the rally..... In other words conservatives that aren't Nazi. Do you understand? Follow the train of thought.

I'm actually more concerned with far-right extremists, rather than radical Islamist extremists, given that the former have been responsible for far more attacks than the latter.

That's because you're caught up in your sheltered, American bubble of ignorance precisely maintained, in part, by said airport security. Though tbh I don't believe you're more concerned with far-right extremists, I think you're saying that because it fits your argument and you're basically a propagandist and a puppet for churning out political babble. Try educating yourself about what's actually happening in Syria before you talk any further. It seems like it's another world away to you but the world is now a very small place, you can travel around the world in 3 days by plane at this point...

You're racist, you try to manipulate black people into liking you by catering to what you think they want you to say rather than saying the truth. It's proof that you see them in terms of their race. In the process you show that you have no real concern for any of the problems in the black community as you dismiss all the issues that were raised. All this claiming to be sympathetic to blacks is just your effort to keep them under your thumb, you actually do nothing for them and have no interest in helping them. And they know that.. — ibrust

Oh ok.

No he actually signed an executive order halting the family separation policy days after this became a public outcry, see for yourself: — ibrust

Yet thousands of children remain separated from parents, again, through a policy the Trump administration started. The traumatic psychological effects may last a lifetime for both children and parents. It will never be "resolved".

It's like nothing I said to you registered - did I not just explain how sometimes, in relationships, people have to call one another out and address the problems...? — ibrust

Calling the EU America's largest economic "foe" is in no way a diplomatic or constructive way to "address problems". Saying that Germany is a puppet of Russia does nothing to "address the problem". Contrast Obama's criticism and constructive solutions of Germany's use of Russia's natural gas, with Trump's.

So he claimed there were good people at the rally, you said it was a Nazi rally, I said there were people who were not Nazis at the rally..... In other words conservatives that aren't Nazi. Do you understand? It's logic. — ibrust

The 'Unite The Right rally" was specifically organized by Richard Spencer, a white nationalist and neo-Nazi.

No he actually signed an executive order halting the family separation policy days after this became a public outcry, — ibrust

Yes, he halted a policy started under his administration because of the public outcry. Here’s an article from May reporting on Sessions’ announcement of the zero tolerance policy.

Calling the EU America's largest economic "foe" is in no way a diplomatic or constructive way to "address problems". Saying that Germany is a puppet of Russia does nothing to "address the problem". Contrast Obama's criticism and constructive solutions of Germany's use of Russia's natural gas, with Trump's.

There is nothing derogatory in saying that Germany gets gas from Russia and is thus economically dependent on Russia and functionally subservient to them. All that is... is observing a geopolitical power dynamic and making a point based on it. World leaders think about things like that constantly. There is nothing offensive or controversial about that statement. If a world leader got offended by that it would prove they were absolutely, utterly incompetent and they would need to be replaced immediately. The way you characterize his position and the things he's saying is so childish, reactive and simplistic. You act like world leaders are a bunch of mindless, bickering children engaging in popularity contests, rather than hard nosed business representatives concerned with the bottom line. It's like you've projected your childish fantasies onto the world at large and you believe the entire world runs based on these petty, bickering idiocies. You just don't have a clear representation of how things really work on that level, the kind of priorities those people actually have. Your tone sounds to me like you've internalized the neurosis of various news channels.

It's like I could turn on the news and get everything you're saying verbatim. I don't even need you, there's no use for you. If I want a response I can just go turn on the news

There is nothing derogatory in saying that Germany gets gas from Russia and is thus economically dependent on Russia and functionally subservient to them. — ibrust

Where one decides to purchase their energy does not make them automatically subservient to them.

We are not, nor have been subservient to Saudi, Venezuela, Mexico, or Canada.

It could be equally true that Germany as a major purchaser of energy from Russia could exert influence on them.

There is nothing derogatory in saying that Germany gets gas from Russia and is thus economically dependent on Russia and functionally subservient to them, it's actually just true. — ibrust

Except 1) that's not the language that Trump used and 2) it isn't true: Trump's actual words were that Germany gets 70% of its energy from Russia, when in fact natural gas makes up only 20% of Germany's energy use, and about 80% of Germany's natural gas comes from Russia. So no, they are certainly not "economically dependent" or "functionally subservient" to Russia.

It's like I could turn on the news and get everything you're saying verbatim. — ibrust

Well yeah, I'm getting my answers from valid sources, actually reporting, and expert investigation. What do you do sir?

Where one decides to purchase their energy does not make them automatically subservient to them.

We are not, nor have been subservient to Saudi, Venezuela, Mexico, or Canada.

It could be equally true that Germany as a major purchaser of energy from Russia could exert influence on them.

Actually we have fought wars and engaged in proxy wars on behalf of Saudi Arabia... everything we do in the middle east is geared towards undermining Iran. That's why we've systematically overthrown every major dictator that was leaning closer to Iran.. It actually does largely come down to power and oil in the middle east.
The buyer is dependent on the supplier while the supplier can go to other buyers, the entire world needs oil. It's much easier as a supplier to find new buyers. It's not an equal power exchange. Especially now considering the Russian economy is becoming increasingly free market and it's been growing exponentially. They even have a skyrocketing China right next to them...
So you're just completely wrong, aren't you? Canada and Mexico are in such close proximity to us they could never pose any threat to cutting off our oil, our economies are way too networked.

Maw, since you've made 3 lackluster responses thus far I am discluding you from any further discussion. For example, twice now you have quoted a small portion of what I just said while leaving out other parts that addressed your response. It's a waste of time.

Actually we have fought wars and engaged in proxy wars on behalf of Saudi Arabia... everything we do in the middle east is geared towards undermining Iran. That's why we've systematically overthrown every major dictator that was leaning closer to Iran.. It actually does largely come down to power and oil in the middle east.
So you're just completely wrong, aren't you? Canada and Mexico are in such close proximity to us they could never pose any threat to cutting off our oil, our economies are way too networked. — ibrust

So are you saying the United States of America is, or has been subservient to Saudi Arabia? I would say quite the contrary. We may well have engaged in all types of events to ensure consistent energy supply, but at no time was it at anyone's direction or interest other than our own.

So you're just completely wrong, aren't you? — ibrust

As an aside, and IMO, save these types of comments for your twitter feed. Just make your points, allow others to make theirs. Maybe even think that individuals can have differing viewpoints without the need to be antagonistic

We are clearly serving the interests of Saudi Arabia in the middle east. You could call us a willing participant, that's actually how alliances tend to form and be maintained... they're rooted in mutual economic interests. If Germany becomes increasingly entrenched with Russia economically and less connected with the US economically they will likely end up aligning with Russia more closely over time and drifting away from the US, that's just how it works. In reality world leaders care very little about whether this leader is a mean dictator, etc. - just observe our relationship with Saudi Arabia. What they actually care about is the bottom line, they're puppets that represent business interests. This is again why the whole outcry over the comment (which you see from Maw) is absurd and moronic - it presumes that the world operates based on the childish, petty whims of those in charge (this is a projection).

As an aside, and IMO, save these types of comments for your twitter feed. Just make your points, allow others to make theirs. Maybe even think that individuals can have differing viewpoints without the need to be antagonistic

As long as you prove to be reasonable I will refrain from antagonizing you. Your initial comments didn't seem reasonable but your response was thoughtful and you at least read what I said, so...

Maw, since you've made 3 lackluster responses thus far I am discluding you from any further discussion. For example, twice now you have quoted a small portion of what I just said while leaving out other parts that addressed your response. It's a waste of time. — ibrust

Lol if you re-read our exchange, you've ignored my responses/evidence to you regarding

1) Trump's Separation Policy
2) Trump's comments on our allies
3) The effects of the Tax Cut
4) That the Unite The Right rally was organized by neo-Nazi Richard Spencer
5) Stats showing far-right terrorists have perpetrated more attacks on American soil than Islamic terrorists.

And your commentary on Black Culture is a mesh of outright racism and false statistics.

We are clearly serving the interests of Saudi Arabia in the middle east — ibrust

I would say we were clearly serving our own interests. If others, such as the Saudi Royal family, also benefited that was collateral and coincidental.

Well yes, and I acknowledged we are willing participants. My point is Saudi Arabia is an equally brutal regime and yet here we are doing that brutal regimes dirty work. Point is that countries can align economically and then political alignment follows. This is getting into the absurdity of our stance towards Russia to begin with - the fact we consider them an adversary and denounce them - the moral justification is all just a dog and pony show for the public. We're adversarial to them because we have conflicting economic interests. If Germany aligns with them economically it inevitably means they align politically, it undermines our alliance with Germany. and it actually undermines the stability of the EU. Russia is actually taking off and they're projected to take off even more over the next couple decades. That's a larger issue at hand, and it needs to be addressed, which is part of why he's mentioned it. And it's not just Germany it's other countries in Eastern Europe.

There is nothing derogatory in saying that Germany gets gas from Russia and is thus economically dependent on Russia and functionally subservient to them. — ibrust

we are wandering off the only point i was making. You stated, as some matter of fact, that the simple act of Germany buying natural gas from Russia would make them subservient to them. After our brief discussion do you still consider that to be true?

Well, it's functionally subservient from the United States standpoint. That ethic is preserving the United States self-interest... Trump represents the United States.
From Germany's standpoint I do agree it's an alignment of apparent mutual self interest, that's just a different conversation. Trump doesn't have to represent Germany.
I suppose he is obligated to represent the world at large, and so is Germany...
People are subservient to their desires and desires can wreck havoc on an individual. Germany could slip out of political alignment with the EU, the EU could fall apart and Europe could land in chaos which could ultimately be detrimental to Germany and the world at large. From that perspective (and from the prevailing pseudo-morals against dictators which everyone boasts about) Germany will become subservient to Russia... yes

Well, it's functionally subservient from the United States standpoint. That ethic is preserving the United States self-interest... Trump represents the United States. From that standpoint Germany is subservient to the competing ethic of Russia.
From Germany's standpoint I do agree it's an alignment of apparent mutual self interest, that's just a different conversation. Trump doesn't have to represent Germany.
I suppose he is obligated to represent the world at large, and so is Germany...
People are subservient to their desires and desires can wreck havoc on an individual. Germany could slip out of political alignment with the EU, the EU could fall apart and Europe could land in chaos which could ultimately be detrimental to Germany. From that perspective and from the prevailing pseudo-morals against dictators Germany will become subservient to Russia... yes — ibrust

Thanks, I have no idea what that all means. But I think we have exhausted our points. Well at least I have.

Just consider this the answer then:
"People are subservient to their desires and desires can wreck havoc on an individual. Germany could slip out of political alignment with the EU, the EU could fall apart and Europe could land in chaos which could ultimately be detrimental to Germany. "
In other words what is apparently done out of self interest can amount to chaos and the enslavement to the desires.

Did you watch any of his rallies? Everything was there in most of them: the Wall, deregulation, getting the US out of bad trade deals, cutting taxes, etc. More detailed versions of his policies were on his campaign website.

I have never watched a rally, I have seen some of the sound bites is all. Do they broadcast these things in full?