I take rap to be a form of song, "a short poem or other set of words set to music or meant to be sung", it is essential different than Philosophy which is typically a prose style. Music brings an emotional spectrum to the words which are sung along with a rhythm, a meter, a structure who's meaning is recursive on itself.

Language in Philosophy is primarily instrumental. Philosophy rely's on meanings that are contained within statements or phrases, even if these statements may also make metaphorical or analogical sense. Plato's dialogues, are both cogent and poetic at times, I guess you could say the art of his dialogues serves his philosophic interest.

The poet uses words the way an artist uses color, not to drive understanding (not instrumentally like Philosophy) but uses them to drive our imagination to the right pitch (which in turn could drive our understanding but this is not its primary purpose). Words are the content, and the music, the structure of the song are its form. A rap video is multidimensional work providing auditory and visual complexities (like the distortion of his movements to the flow of the rhyme) in service of meanings meant to drive how the song affects our personal flow. Duke Ellington said it best "It Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing"

Rap is a growing style, now outstripping rock sales (Nielson) and now with much more complex rhythms styles, embracing (or eschewing) whatever comes in its path. It is a powerful medium which enables the conveyance of all kinds of strong emotions. It is a unique medium in this respect, it enables venting the way 'America' vents, with violence interspersed with rhyme and jive.

Childish Gambino's 'America' has been analyzed to death, it's a great rap song and video.

I admit -- I don't know all of what you're getting at. But I like that music video and want to talk about it.

There was also a good live performance on SNL worth watching if you haven't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2P2qbr-_Ps

To me: The music video and song is the most angry expression of being trapped in something he doesn't want. America views blacks as happy dancers from Africa willing to put on a performance to get the money they need to escape the poverty enforced upon them, but the song points it out on multiple occasions: "This is America". This happens after the reggae-ish intro claiming that "we just want to party, party just for you, we just want the money, money just for you" -- to set the scene and point to "this" in "this is America".

Of course in the music video he also kills a man just prior to the music change and saying "this is America". But that's because blacks are faceless victims of murder in America, and in spite of that fact -- whether it be police or criminals carrying guns pulling the trigger -- the popular stage for black Americans is as entertainers who are pretty and hip and happy who just want to party.

Also, as if to warn what happens if you fall out of the Black America character, Gambino explicitly says "don't catch you slippin up" -- you're accepted as a party icon, as someone who is out for the money (for you), as someone who would pull the trigger, and also as a victim forgotten not even 2 seconds after the trigger is pulled -- but don't slip out of that.

The dance confirms this variation between happy-fun-entertainer and serious-minded player -- by hopping between clear expressions of gay frivolity that are exaggerated where the eyes are pointed off screen to looking straight at us, the viewer, no smile with advice and a dead cold stare that says 'here is the truth'.

Also, shortly after Gambino is joined by dancers in school clothing that present the "nice negro". They are always involved in a song and dance number as well as in the SNL stage version of the song. They are the front that you need to present, well dressed with good dance moves, that you can't slip out of.

Contrast this with the lyrics where weapons are a necessary part of life, where you have to think like you are going to get what you need, that you are cold, that you are cool, that you are engaged in guerrilla war.

Quick change to a black church choir singing -- the advice from grandma saying you gotta get your money, black man. It sounds happy and looks happy and ends with a Kalashnikov killing every one of the singers.

I honestly thought of the civil rights movement when I saw the choir. It was the old way of doing things, the get your money black man and stand up way. I saw the killing as a breaking away from the old way, as well as throwing back to the worthlessness of black lives in America -- because, immediately after, Gambino says 'this is America'

In the montage that follows we have Gambino and the school-clothes dancers at front, but in the back we have people running around everywhere and chaos -- first there's a guy thrown from the rafters, then you see people sitting in the rafter recording everything with a cell phone, and then a car on fire with a police officer chasing after the people causing chaos in the background.

I am honestly uncertain about the reference to Oaxaca. Just prior to that we get the answer though: "Hunnid bands, hunnid bands, hunnid bands
Contraband, contraband, contraband:

And just after we get a reference to reparations, but ones that are individual:

"America, I just checked my following list and
You go tell somebody
You mothafuckas owe me"

with the quick justification that grandma always told the speaker.

Just prior to all this we have the speaker lighting a blunt, and after the justification we have a common hip hop theme of the speaker hopping on top of a vehicle with plenty of vehicles on display with girls as if he owns them all. But they aren't the usual luxury vehicles. They are old vehicles, as if "get your money" and a blunt are what you have to settle for.

Dancing all the way until the end. Where the truth is presented --

"You just a Black man in this world
You just a barcode, ayy
You just a Black man in this world
Drivin' expensive foreigns, ayy
You just a big dawg, yeah
I kenneled him in the backyard
No probably ain't life to a dog
For a big dog
"

Someone trapped, and running -- and to take the SNL video -- someone still performing for the money.

The fact that the song is catchy and dance-able just adds to the meaning. It's the only medium in which this sort of feeling could be expressed.

edit: So in conclusion I felt the song was both very angry and cynical in its presentation, but because of the ending it seemed like the singer -- as opposed to the person in the music video -- wanted more than this "new" way of doing things. Like there was hope outside of the structures that forced the performer to perform, since at the end he was running. And in some sense, according to the music video, it looked like everyone was running too, even people who are not black. Just that black America has it worse.


Having said that, I don't know that philosophy works in the same way that art does. Art has a place in the world for expression. Philosophy does too. But I don't know if this art replaces philosophy -- they are just different modes of expression.

One thing art has over philosophy is that it's able to express philosophical ideas in a manner that is more tasteful and moving than philosophy tends to be.

But philosophy appeals to reason, at the end of the day. That is both its weakness and strength.

But philosophy appeals to reason, at the end of the day. That is both its weakness and strength. — Moliere

It is not a weakness that Philosophy appeals to reason. It is the weakness of the reasoner that requires Philosophy to remain on her knees and continue to appeal.

The weakness of Philosophy is that it must genuflect before the reason of the reasoner. Art does not appeal. it stands like a God and simply declares. Art, is the liberated soul of Man.

m

Ah. A proclamation.

UK has something similar in the grime scene with Akala, Lowkey and Wretch. But rap as social commentary is old as rap. I think it's more that political rap is becoming more popular in counter culture than rap being some novel transformative force.

Real revolutionaries engage in revolutionary acts, 'far as I know, I just rap — Akala

The way he flows freestyle is quite amazing, perhaps I bet the most difficult part of the America video was picking which of the lines....Donald looks like he can live in his freestyle in real rhyme.

In case one hasn't noticed the collectivization and homogenization of thought that has occurred as a consequence of globalization, has lately resulted in a general contraction of human intellect, towards basic primitive and instinctual imperative. This is clearly manifest in the ideals behind; Trumpsim, Brexit, Ecological denial, the supremacy of Capitalist ideology, the unquestioned authority of the Market, and the near Universal notion that; the primary objective of human existence (and socio-political function), is towards the acquisition of superfluous wealth, so that the contemporary 'God' of the Market and of the material-self can be serviced. — Marcus de Brun

You're not going to leave out communism are you!?

To be brutally honest in response to the OP: it's unfair to philosophy and generous to rap to on one hand aver that philosophy is dead and on the other proclaim rap Thought's new Madonna.

Firstly, a given bit of philosophy can stand or fall on its own merit, not on the prestige of the figures or folklore which surrounds it. Likewise, a given piece of rap music can stand or fall on its own merit, not the merit of the greater body of rap music.

It would have been good to give a positive definition of philosophy rather than pointing to a list of things which it's allegedly not.

Some rap is philosophical, some is about Gunz'n'Hoes'z. I really don't know how philosophical Gambino's "This is America" actually is though.

Philosophy is supposed to enlighten (I guess) and perhaps This is America achieves this, but it does so by seemingly cryptic visual metaphor and inspecific verbal cues such that we're left to play unending games of interpretation instead experiencing the methodical clarity that typifies good philosophy.

The post-modern arts departments (gender studies et al.) very much enjoy the game of deriving grand narratives by looking at specific objects through a myriad lenses. Normally they look at society to do this (i.e: through the lens of race, every sort of disparity between ethnic demographics appears caused by racism), and Gambino's "This is America" is like a bright and colorful popup book specifically designed to be viewed through such lenses; the jangliest set of keys; the most remarkable mobile.

When this song was released some channels were flooded with feminist analysis and meta-analysis of "This is America" as if it itself is the original subject of study from which worldly truth can be derived.

I don't mind the song, and it makes one or two worthwhile statements, but it's not philosophy. It was derived from (simultaneously criticizes and panders to) an increasingly tribal zeitgeist where the most broad and basic assessments become the most appealing. "This is America" is a meme that can be up-voted or down-voted with a single click of approval or disapproval; wholesale agreement or wholesale opposition. It's polarizing.

It's an interesting portrayal (the song), and it might be in some ways philosophical, but what we're doing here and now (the subsequent analysis of it) is the actual philosophy. If all Gambino has to do to dethrone philosophy is strike a few reminiscent poses and make a few political half-statements (while the rest of us scramble to figure out meaning), then philosophy was a poor king indeed.

Rap doesn't compare to rigorous philosophical discussion and analysis. This thread is silly.

Isn't he one of your home boys?

Having said that, I don't know that philosophy works in the same way that art does. Art has a place in the world for expression. Philosophy does too. But I don't know if this art replaces philosophy -- they are just different modes of expression.

One thing art has over philosophy is that it's able to express philosophical ideas in a manner that is more tasteful and moving than philosophy tends to be.

But philosophy appeals to reason, at the end of the day. That is both its weakness and strength. — Moliere

Art, is the liberated soul of Man. — Marcus de Brun

Best to analyze it as political art then along the lines Cavacava described. That's no bad thing. Designating it as philosophy as you originally did is coming at it from the wrong angle I think, and leaves an unnecessary opening for counterpunches of the type you're receiving here

Fuk that was awesome.

I don't love you hoes,
I'm out the doe.

72% of black children are born out of wedlock.

How philosophical.

I don't love you hoes,
I'm out the doe. — Harry Hindu

That's Snoop Dogg.

Strawmen aren't philosophical either.

Yep, but the thread itself is arguably a strawman too to the extent no one really believes rap to be philosophy, at least not of the sort we consider philosophy to be here, which means the appropriate response would be to weigh it as an art form. Decrying rap as a glorification of irresponsibility seems a predictible assessment one should expect, especially after it was just heralded as unmitigated genius.

The OP is about the evolution of rap into something more interesting than it had previously been, and mentions specific artists in that regard. Sure, it's not philosophy but as art there's no reason it can't be unmitigated genius just as there's no reason it can't be irresponsible crap. Depends on the artist and depends on the work.

It is not a weakness that Philosophy appeals to reason. It is the weakness of the reasoner that requires Philosophy to remain on her knees and continue to appeal.

The weakness of Philosophy is that it must genuflect before the reason of the reasoner. Art does not appeal. it stands like a God and simply declares. Art, is the liberated soul of Man. — Marcus de Brun

Isn't that what makes it better than philosophy, in some respects?

I think so.I think they're both important aspects of human activity. And actually work better together than the traditional dichotomy between reason and feeling might suggest -- but only if we understand them to be doing different things and to be good at what they do.

I was hoping to get that point across by saying what I feel and think when I watch the video you linked -- trying to do philosophy on art. Now, what I wrote was very far from moving. It wasn't an expression of my liberation, or anything so deep and profound as what many an artwork can express. But it still provided something valuable -- by telling you what was going on in my head, in my thinking, by my reasoning. Rather than just make declarations it gave you, and others, something to pick on from the standpoint of reason.

"no one really believes rap to be philosophy, at least not of the sort we consider philosophy to be here, which means the appropriate response would be to weigh it as an art form.."

In respect of material or practical social evolution, Philosophy might well be considered as something of a mute quadriplegic, it requires a vehicle, much as thought apparently requires a body or a physical form to become manifest. Many feel that the 'duality' of mind/thought and body is an empty impossibility that minds are contingent upon body's that minds are to bodies as surfaces are to tables, or scores are to football matches (to quote Strawson) the existence of one is contingent upon the other.

In like fashion Philosophy cannot become real or actualized without a 'form' of some kind, some might consider that the form of philosophy should be confined to words, papers, discussion forums etc. However the problem with words or language has been dealt with by Wittgenstein in that meaning and words are not as precisely connected as the philosopher might like.

At the end of the day something must be done with the words, something must be contingent upon them if they are to be anything more than symbols. To assert that philosophy should remain confined to words is to perpetuate the sentence and continue its confinement to dusty archives in University archives or high brow intellectual conversations. There is no harm in this however high-brow intellectuals rarely 'do' anything other than talk or write. The doing of things is the realm where philosophy becomes real.

There is a line in Don Quixote that refers to the truism that the fields and farms can produce as many philosophers as the Universities, they may not have the language philosophy but they have her ideals and as such are not similarly constrained. Philosophy has its doers who are as important as its thinkers.

In my own estimation 'Art', good art, fine art... is Art in as much as it approximates itself to Philosophy, in as much as it compels new thought and on occasion: action. Music is no different. To deny the philosophy within music is to deny the potential profundity of a liberated Philosophy.

I think it is beyond question that the 'music' of the sixties did more to end the Vietnam war than all the written Philosophy of Christ and Buddha combined.

America is in the throes of an intellectual crisis, an intellectual dark age of sorts. From what I can see, music is doing more to address this, than formal Philosophy could ever dream of.

When Trump is ultimately dispensed with I suspect that music and art will share in the greater claim to have actually effected the necessary social evolution.

"Sit down, lil' bitch, be humble!"
(Kendrick)

M

That's Snoop Dogg. — Baden

Who is a black rapper. Maybe you didn't get my point.

Strawmen aren't philosophical either. — Baden

Neither is racism, which is what every rapper (most rappers) who uses the N-Word in their lyrics engages in.

The OP is about the evolution of rap into something more interesting than it had previously been, and mentions specific artists in that regard. Sure, it's not philosophy but as art there's no reason it can't be unmitigated genius just as there's no reason it can't be irresponsible crap. Depends on the artist and depends on the work. — Baden

Then why the focus on rap, when there are many other music genres that could be considered philosophical more than rap?

Philosophy itself is just an artful use of words.

— Baden

Who is a black rapper. Maybe you didn't get my point. — Harry Hindu

Snoop Dogg is a black rapper therefore what?

Neither is racism, which is what every rapper (most rappers) who uses the N-Word in their lyrics is. — Harry Hindu

No, they're not. They've appropriated the word and are using it in a different way than it was originally used by white people. You didn't notice that?

Then why the focus on rap, when there are many other music genres that could be considered philosophical more than rap? — Harry Hindu

Why not? It's a discussion forum. The OP can focus on any type of music he wants.

Harry

"Neither is racism, which is what every rapper (most rappers) who uses the N-Word in their lyrics engages in."

The use of the 'n-word' by Rappers and black Americans in General, is a very powerful F.U. To racism itself, not a confirmation of it.

I have black friends, whom I love very dearly and whom I believe love me. I refer to them on particular occasions with the n-word, and they have similar terms which they apply to me on occasion. The grounds for the shared use of the word between us is 'love' and mutual respect and friendship. Many blacks (rightly and wrongly) don't share this space with many whites, and they certainly do not share it with the idiocy of Racism itself.

There is much philosophy behind the use of the n-word between blacks, but that philosophy is as much about love and a shared experience of racism, it is used as a means to identify with something deep, but is certainly not a form of racism.

You should think on this a little more and develop the idea of 'n-word' usage (perhaps in another thread). It is a most interesting subject.

M

Snoop Dogg is a black rapper therefore what? — Baden

...therefore Snoop Dogg's lyrics are part of the discussion. What is so difficult about that?

No, they're not. They've appropriated the word and are using it in a different way than it was originally used by white people. You didn't notice that? — Baden

How are they using it differently than white people? Can whites use the word the same way without being called racists? Can blacks make the distinction in how it is used when a white person uses it both ways, or can a white person use that word only one way (which would be a racist thing to say)? Are there any white rappers using that word in their lyrics? Is there a different way to use the word "cracker" than how black rappers are using it (in a racist way)?

Why not? It's a discussion forum. The OP can focus on any type of music he wants. — Baden

Sure they can, but are they really being consistent then? Like I said, there are other music genres that can be considered MORE philosophical than rap, and you want to focus on rap and it's "philosophical" nature?

The use of the 'n-word' by Rappers and black Americans in General, is a very powerful F.U. To racism itself, not a confirmation of it. — Marcus de Brun

It's a FU to whites in that "I can say the word and you can't". That is racism. Tell me one black who heard a white say the word and thought that the white person meant the same thing they did. It's telling people what they can and can't say based on the color of their skin, which is racism.

Do some research on it if you're confused and stop wasting space here as you're dragging the discussion off-topic.

You can start with this if you like:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0075424211414807

"The present research employs quantitative and qualitative analysis of data from narratives by African American comedians to show that a variant of nigger that developed in the early African American community persists in the lexicon of African American English because it conveys a social meaning that is foundational in the identity of many African Americans. Use of this form allows a speaker to construct an identity representing awareness of the history of African Americans and practical knowledge of the nature and implications of the diaspora experience. The form has been productive in its capacity to convey a range of attitudinal stances related to its basic meaning, including solidarity, censure, and a proactive stance that seeks to bring about positive change."

Harry

You are clearly having a bad day.

Does this help:

I love you!

M

Your link doesn't answer any of my questions. In fact, it seems to reinforce the point I'm making in that it is only okay for blacks to use the word.

This is the typical tactic of those that can't answer difficult questions: claim the discussion is off-topic and ignorant instead of answering them. Damn, Baden. I thought you were one of the smarter ones on this forum.

I'm still on the topic of rappers and the lyrics that they use, which seems perfectly fine in a thread labeled, "When Philosophy fell, Rap stood up." I don't know what topic you've diverged to in your head unless it was simply to avoid answering difficult questions.

You are clearly having a bad day. — Marcus de Brun

If asking questions means that one is having a bad day, then everyone on a philosophy forum must be having bad days.

How about you address my points instead of doing the side-step?

harry

Your point(s) have already been addressed, but you appear to be unwilling to accept the address. Hence the reference to the bad day. When you make a point and refuse to accept its fallacy, the cause is usually an emotion of some kind. These potentially horrible things invariably get in the way of logic and reason.

To re-iterate (for the final time)

Your point:

"It's a FU to whites in that "I can say the word and you can't". That is racism. Tell me one black who heard a white say the word and thought that the white person meant the same thing they did. It's telling people what they can and can't say based on the color of their skin, which is racism."

I have already asserted that I can, and do use the n-word, and the use of the word is not precluded. My children are of mixed race and I apply the n-word regularly in the context of my loving relationship with them. It is the context that determines the 'right' to use the word, just as it is the context that determines the correct use of any word.

You have (very generously) been directed to a linguistic study of the use of the n-word, if you are interested in the science or philosophy behind same you should read the paper, the abstract perhaps says it all. You might then offer a thread with your own contrary or affirmative insights. As it appears you have much to say on this off thread topic.

Otherwise the forum is a place for ideas rather than intransigent emotion.

M

here has been an observable shift in the priority of Rap, from the gold-chain, gun-toting, rich, gangster-trope, to that of an astute and profound social commentary (the former living space of intellectuals and Philosophers).Artists like Kendrick, Anderson Paak, Brock Hampton, Death Grips and many more, elucidate the point. — Marcus de Brun