I suppose we could be witnessing an attempt to obtain therapy to eliminate prior negative patterns, but it looks like heartache and pining to me, not resolved by analysis and obsessing, but by finding someone new. — Hanover

Possibly, but there is only one heart that knows that for sure and as the heart heals, so we grow.
We grow to take a chance on another dude who presents himself as the stable, well mannered mature man who does not allow a fur ball to run his life and has a cool new antique clock.

The reality is that the antagonist in our story is better positioned for future happiness because he lacks the emotional baggage. — Hanover

Reread that sentence. Do you really think a guy with his attitude is going to achieve happiness that lasts forever after?

I'm not letting you off the hook on this one, not from what I've seen. He's a few well written paragraphs to getting back with you (or at least to getting your world spinning back out of control) although he'll never say them because he doesn't care enough to. I could recite it, but I'll spare you.

Stop romanticising this. He's not war and famine that needs your loving kindness to set straight. He's just an immature guy who broke your heart (and that is a big deal in its own right), and you want to make it right somehow in your mind. There is a word that describes the empathy and altruism you express for his well being. It's called love. And no, it's not a universal love for all of mankind you feel like you're trying to say. You don't care about your neighbor's break up like this. He's the guy on your mind.

This post sounds mean, but it's not. You sooo need to just put him out of your mind. I suspect one day you'll reread these posts and see how down in it you were.

Reread that sentence. Do you really think a guy with his attitude is going to achieve happiness that lasts forever after? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

He's as capable as any of us are. It's all about finding the right person. My bigger point is that whatever his problems, they are his, and not his ex's to worry about. He'll be fine, or not, but let it go.

It is a bit absurd that I am even having this conversation with you because you have clearly missed the point. I feel that what you say is something that you want to say to yourself.

I get that, there is no romanticism because this thread is about the games we play, that lack of honesty or authenticity and a bully is cold and lacks empathy. He is calculative and unable to relate to people and I want to get inside his mind and find out what motivates him, what makes him act in such a brutal way, whether there is a chance to feel empathy for others. I would appreciate you stop with this 'this is what you think' because I know what I think and I think about him because he had a profound effect over me and not because I want to squish up next to him in bed. It is a universal love, but his presence overwhelmed me in particular because he also did a lot of wrong. I don't want to reiterate that explanation again.

He's as capable as any of us are. It's all about finding the right person. My bigger point is that whatever his problems, they are his, and not his ex's to worry about. He'll be fine, or not, but let it go. — Hanover

I agree with you that they are his problems, no one else's but that goes for all of us. Frankly, when I dissect a relationship that has not ended the way in which I wanted it to, I focus on if I want to change the way I approach it next time. Sometimes I need to change, other times it is their work to do.

I'll leave it alone, but I really do see it differently.

I feel that what you say is something that you want to say to yourself. — TimeLine

I can see how you would feel that way Timeline. Ironically, I see it more as a future self trying to advise a current self.

I'm pretty sure that the target has to respond in a certain way to make themselves a tempting victim for continued psychological assault. — fdrake

I missed this but it does deserve highlight. Anyone who is a victim of any kind of abuse is only a 'victim' until they realize they are being abused. It is at that very moment, that instant in time, that the person being abused, can choose to become a'survivor' and begin to work their way out of the toxic relationship, until successfully discontinuing all interaction with them. Or in that same instant, that person who was a 'victim' can chose to become an 'enabler' by letting the abuse continue in any form.

I wonder if you could clarify something. One of the posters in this thread revealed that his wife is afraid of him and that he finds it to be common that women feel that way. My response to that is astonishment that anyone would think that it's normal for a wife to be afraid of her husband.

Do you agree with the poster I mentioned, or me?

One of the posters in this thread revealed that his wife is afraid of him and that he finds it to be common that women feel that way. — frank

I missed that. Which post is it?

No that's not normal. It's fucked up.

I wonder if you could clarify something. One of the posters in this thread revealed that his wife is afraid of him and that he finds it to be common that women feel that way. My response to that is astonishment that anyone would think that it's normal for a wife to be afraid of her husband.

Do you agree with the poster I mentioned, or me? — frank

Can you link me back to the context it was said in?

No that's not normal. It's fucked up. — Hanover

I agree with you that fearing your spouse is fucked up but I cannot say that it is "not" normal. I can say it is not "healthy" nor would I expect much positive to come from such a relationship but I cannot say that it is uncommon because it isn't. Especially if you examine the finer details and the inner workings of "Games People Play" I think you might find fearing your partner more common than you realize.

This is the quote:

As I said previously, this is the first time I'm trying to articulate these issues, so I haven't got myself together. I think this paragraph summarizes some of what I'm thinking about. Although I'm a very aggressive person, I don't intentionally hurt people - physically or emotionally. I'd say "never" but that's not really true. I've tried, but it doesn't work. I can't do it. I have almost never used violence to try to get what I want from someone. I've never threatened, implied, intimated, violence. But women are afraid of me. And I don't mean women on the street. I mean my wife, who's known me for almost 50 years. That's not unique. I know other women in long-term, non-violent relationships who feel the same way toward their husband, boyfriend. — somebody

I don't really want to talk about the person who wrote this. I just wanted your view of the idea expressed. If a woman is afraid of her husband, doesn't that usually mean there is either physical or psychological violence on the scene? Women aren't just typically afraid of men, are they?

We can't assume the fear is rational, as it's possible this poster's wife is irrationally intimidated. We really have no evidence of anything here really.

I would think that that fear ought be addressed somewhere other than on this board in order to alleviate it, whatever the cause.

You'd probably get more insight by asking the person who said it, rather than inviting us to talk about it.

I totally agree. I don't want to zero in on the specific case of the person who wrote that. There are sexist people who want to argue that it's natural for men to be aggressive and for women to be fearful. I realize that a lot of women are fearful and with good cause. I'm just saying that women in general are not afraid of men in general. There's something pathological going on where fear exists.

I have a friend who's fearful of his wife's emotional tirades, so he walks on eggshells around her. Why does he tolerate it? Some folks are just fucked up I guess. They're on to 20 years like this, so maybe this is their brand of happiness.

To each his own. Makes sense.

I can see how you would feel that way Timeline. Ironically, I see it more as a future self trying to advise a current self. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I am not sure Hans is entirely aware of just how offensive it is to tell me that I am in love with a man who treated me so badly and that speaking of him and trying to understand him equates to having those feelings for him. The rhetorical landscape that we find ourselves traversing may ultimately lead to some errors in communication or misunderstandings - particularly when I speak of love which I see as moral consciousness and not romantic or sexual love, to be morally aware and care for all people - and being told that I am romanticising my understanding of moral consciousness is clearly a misunderstanding of who I am. In addition, people often project their own experiences and feelings and forcefeed it to others claiming that this is what you think rather than actually attempting to understand what they are trying to say. I am aware that what he said to me was completely wrong, so I can only conclude that he is the one feeling that way.

Maybe he is having a hard time moving on?

I don't really want to talk about the person who wrote this. I just wanted your view of the idea expressed. — frank

Fair enough. You have provided enough information for me to express my opinion, just understand there are factors that are at play such as how old is the relationship, has there been previous out bursts of anger that have not been addressed and what is the overall health of the relationship. After 50 yrs of knowing someone you know the good and the bad and all of us have both, good and bad in us.

If a woman is afraid of her husband, doesn't that usually mean there is either physical or psychological violence on the scene? — frank

Not necessarily. I for one am fearful of men because I have witnessed abuse of my Mom by a step father and even though I have done years (2.5 yrs to be precise) of one on one therapy to figure out what the fuck happened. It is because of my history that I am fearful, not the situation I am currently in. Although when things get heated and I keep pushing, I worry he will push back so I don't get physical.

For anyone else? A man raises his hand ONCE to you and you should be gone. For me I know the level of anger that can be reached within my partner before he will get physical. So logically, I then know where the line is that I would need to cross for him to respond physically and know not to cross it. Does that make me fearful of men? Does that make me fearful of my husband? And if I should be fearful, what if I am not? Am I being blind? Do I need an intervention because one day he might get physical? After being married almost 25 yrs, it would have been a waste and maybe a deal breaker so I am glad I am trusting of his knowing where my line is as well. However, being a woman, I made the line verbally clear as to what it would take for me to get physical, if I would at all or if I would more than likely calmly walk away from him and the drama he was seeking/struggling with.

Women aren't just typically afraid of men, are they? — frank

For the most part I would say deep inside, being brutally honest here, that yes many women are afraid of letting a man into her inner self.

I am not sure Hans is entirely aware of just how offensive it is to tell me that I am in love with a man who treated me so badly and that speaking of him and trying to understand him equates to having those feelings for him. The rhetorical landscape that we find ourselves traversing may ultimately lead to some errors in communication or misunderstandings - particularly when I speak of love which I see as moral consciousness and not romantic or sexual love, to be morally aware and care for all people - and being told that I am romanticising my understanding of moral consciousness is clearly a misunderstanding of who I am. In addition, people often project their own experiences and feelings and forcefeed it to others claiming that this is what you think rather than actually attempting to understand what they are trying to say. I am aware that what he said to me was completely wrong, so I can only conclude that he is the one feeling that way. — TimeLine

My feeling is that once I meet someone, from that moment on, I have a relationship with them, shallow or deep, long lasting or just a "Hi" in passing, they are now part of my life experience. Not all become close to me, in fact I let very few people in life close to the real me, because those I allow close have an ability to toss a question into the heart of who I am and I am eager to entertain that thought and if it is someone I trust, they can challenge who I am fundamentally. Those close to me make me look inward, when I thought the answer was within another or my failure to not have what it took to make the relationship work.

My point being that my relationship with my exes are just as much a part of who I am as those who choose to be around me today. Even if I swear to never speak to someone again, that is a relationship, one that needs resolving but that would be for another day. Relationships exist once they are formed, we meet someone and our energies mix with theirs and if we are lucky there is synergy created between the two of us. That synergy needs nurturing and attention or it will fade away, not completely but just out of view. As soon as I pay attention, good or bad, to that synergy, it thrives. The best I can do is make peace with what I have invested in the relationship and hope it is reciprocated but only if it is freely given.

Maybe he is having a hard time moving on? — TimeLine

Like I said, relationships morph over time and circumstance but I cannot "move on" or act like it never existed because I gave my love and I will never regret that. I may regret whom I give it to and who I trust but that will not stop me from giving the next relationship a fair shake.

You'd probably get more insight by asking the person who said it, rather than inviting us to talk about it. — fdrake

I could really only answer from my own experiences which are as sorted as the next gal's. Much more of a generalization than a specific answer.

I have a friend who's fearful of his wife's emotional tirades, so he walks on eggshells around her. Why does he tolerate it? Some folks are just fucked up I guess. They're on to 20 years like this, so maybe this is their brand of happiness. — Hanover

So is he physically afraid of his wife as I was asked?

No, never physical violence, but screaming, yelling, criticizing.

Ok, so I'm learning something new. You're saying that it is normal for a woman to be afraid of her husband.

My feeling is that once I meet someone, from that moment on, I have a relationship with them, shallow or deep, long lasting or just a "Hi" in passing, they are now part of my life experience. Not all become close to me, in fact I let very few people in life close to the real me, because those I allow close have an ability to toss a question into the heart of who I am and I am eager to entertain that thought and if it is someone I trust, they can challenge who I am fundamentally. Those close to me make me look inward, when I thought the answer was within another or my failure to not have what it took to make the relationship work. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

This is fantastic and I agree (some of this should go on FB :wink: ) but I see friendship as an activity that is invaluable to this parallel between us and the external world because we mirror special duties that we must possess in order to form mutual meaning and respect, some teleological behaviourism that characterises a harmony where we hold responsibility for sustaining our friendships that we communicate objectively. The ethical dimension vis-a-vis the patterns of purposive responses is the root or beginning of our understanding of moral value and thus where empathy is formed. Our capacity to feel love is rooted in the activity of friendship, a combination of personal choice and social implications where we consider others or they hold an important concern for us and yet there is no reciprocal necessity (although there are some tensions here as to the distinctions between the pleasure it can produce and virtue).

Sexual relationships (as distinct from friendships) on its own is only sex and economics, thus to maximise the pleasurable and meaningful experience of sexual intimacy one must form an honest friendship, as an absence of which would make it this bleak capitalistic transaction with false "games" or social requisites (hey, i'll buy you chocolate on Valentines day, that must mean I love you :roll: ) in order to play 'house' or pretend that there is some meaning other than it being sex and economics. Friendship between two lovers makes the relationship real, it generates the conditions that produces a consciousness of ourselves and our place in the world, or what meaning and goodness is through the interpersonal experience.

Relationships exist once they are formed, we meet someone and our energies mix with theirs and if we are lucky there is synergy created between the two of us. That synergy needs nurturing and attention or it will fade away, not completely but just out of view. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I once tried to joke with that guy and he glared at me with this vicious look like I was the stupidest thing he had ever seen. A friend does not do that, you laugh even if the joke is stupid or you muck around with them and tell them they are silly because there is a lovingkindness and gentleness in this interaction, an absence of that coldness and calculated responses.

This is why I said that I wish I could have been friends with that guy because what that would mean is that he would have had that 'switch' turn on, that he would not have been so cruel and callous but rather he would have stopped and become conscious of me and how his behaviour is hurting me. The love in friendship is what makes one understand and care without any ulterior motives other than wanting them to be happy. He did not have any empathy and friendship enables empathy or moral consciousness, that 'switch' that makes one understand others and ourselves, the importance of our behaviour and our responses.

Not necessarily. I for one am fearful of men because I have witnessed abuse of my Mom by a step father and even though I have done years (2.5 yrs to be precise) of one on one therapy to figure out what the fuck happened. It is because of my history that I am fearful, not the situation I am currently in. Although when things get heated and I keep pushing, I worry he will push back so I don't get physical. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I am not afraid of men, I am afraid of some men, the type of men we have been communicating on this thread about who lack empathy. You cannot reason with them. This is purely instinctual, that such men have the capacity to hurt and we are naturally afraid of what can hurt us. If such threats occur in intimacy, it is unequivocally fucked up, no woman should ever feel fear of her partner, it is a bond, a connection and not a Master/Slave relationship.

Sexual relationships (as distinct from friendships) on its own is only sex and economics, thus to maximise the pleasurable and meaningful experience of sexual intimacy one must form an honest friendship, as an absence of which would make it this bleak capitalistic transaction with false "games" or social requisites (hey, i'll buy you chocolate on Valentines day, that must mean I love you :roll: ) in order to play 'house' or pretend that there is some meaning other than it being sex and economics. Friendship between two lovers makes the relationship real, it generates the conditions that produces a consciousness of ourselves and our place in the world, or what meaning and goodness is through the interpersonal experience. — TimeLine

Your response is making me examine my own time line of how things came about from my being single to being 'in love' with someone and which came first, the horse or the carriage. I think many times it is easy to fall in love with the idea of being 'in love' but the newness wears off, the work begins and one of us would bail. It seems like how that work/attention (on the growth of the synergy) is silently delineated between the two people but never verbally expressed that causes a lot of hair line cracks, that over time shatter the relationship. If I never express to him how I feel, how can I hold him accountable for not fulfilling my expectations about the chores or my desires in the sexual realm? I shouldn't have held him accountable but I did even though I never verbally expressed my wants to him.

From this I learned that I am the only one I can set expectations for and truly be disappointed in for not reaching. I try REALLY hard not to set up expectations for anyone else and I am rarely disappointed and often gently surprised with others actions. If I am disappointed by someone's behavior, I look back over where it was that I formed and placed an expectation on who they are, how I think they should behave and analyze why I allowed that expectation to creep in and how to keep it from happening again. I am hardly good at it but at least I keep the control to do something about it, in the only place where I can do something about it, in my wheelhouse, not theirs.

This is why I said that I wish I could have been friends with that guy because what that would mean is that he would have had that 'switch' turn on, that he would not have been so cruel and callous but rather he would have stopped and become conscious of me and how his behaviour is hurting me. The love in friendship is what makes one understand and care without any ulterior motives other than wanting them to be happy. He did not have any empathy and friendship enables empathy or moral consciousness, that 'switch' that makes one understand others and ourselves, the importance of our behaviour and our responses. — TimeLine

In a way, I wish you could have been friends with that guy too but honestly, I don't know that friendship alone would have made the difference. I would like to think that I am friends with my husband but even we know how to be cruel to one another and when times get bad, those bad habits can come out. It doesn't always feel wrong and maybe that is where I need to do some work, maybe I should feel bad for having feelings or anger that is unwarranted but regardless I can acknowledge that they exist.

I don't wait anymore if I feel something about someone, good or bad, I am pretty quick to express it directly to them. It frees me up to move onto the next feeling that is heading towards me and how I will express that one. I admit I can be a long day when it comes to interacting with me and my stream of consciousness. I am not everyone's cup of tea but I like who I am and that is what truly matters. I need not tell you that you need to love yourself completely before you can love another but since I already typed it, I'll leave it.

Sexual relationships (as distinct from friendships) on its own is only sex and economics, thus to maximise the pleasurable and meaningful experience of sexual intimacy one must form an honest friendship, as an absence of which would make it this bleak capitalistic transaction with false "games" or social requisites (hey, i'll buy you chocolate on Valentines day, that must mean I love you :roll: ) in order to play 'house' or pretend that there is some meaning other than it being sex and economics. Friendship between two lovers makes the relationship real, it generates the conditions that produces a consciousness of ourselves and our place in the world, or what meaning and goodness is through the interpersonal experience. — TimeLine

This is an idiosyncratic idealistic view of romantic relationships that has merit but is not universal. I will acknowledge having had friendships with those I have been romantic with, but those friendships were not like non-romantic ones. Romantic relationships are complicated by deeper dependence and there is a pragmatic conditionality to them, which requires fidelity and specific contributions to continue forward. There are also firmer commitments in romantic relationships where the notion of breaking up exists in a far more real capacity than exists in non-romantic relationships, where there are less distinct beginnings and endings.

The exchange of Valentine's Day gifts is not a good example of a meaningful condition for the relationship to continue forward, and I would doubt many real relationships end for failure to remember the day. A real example would be an expectation that your partner share dinner with you on occasion, from time to time contribute to the household chores, to help care for the children, to make efforts to earn money, to not have romantic relationships with others, and so on. These contributions are both pragmatic and evidence of love and friendship because it would make sense that if one didn't help the other, the other might interpret that as uncaring. And that is precisely why a partner might be upset at not getting Valentine's Day chocolate, not because they were unable to buy as much chocolate as they wanted for themselves, but because they felt that a caring partner would remember them on a date set aside for remembering them. It is the thought that counts after all.

But the point is that all this required interaction and expectation goes far beyond what you would expect to see in a very close friendship between roommates, and it's entirely possible that a very close friendship between roommates would be a closer friendship than exists between a married couple and yet the marriage would be entirely satisfying to both.

If such threats occur in intimacy, it is unequivocally fucked up, no woman should ever feel fear of her partner, it is a bond, a connection and not a Master/Slave relationship. — TimeLine

I agree that fear is a negative emotion that shouldn't exist in a relationship, but egalitarianism need not exist in a relationship for it to be in all ways successful as long as that is consistent with the expectations of those involved. I know you didn't suggest otherwise, but there are all sorts of consensual relationships out there that appear fucked up beyond repair from my perspective, but somehow they seem to work.

As I said previously, this is the first time I'm trying to articulate these issues, so I haven't got myself together. I think this paragraph summarizes some of what I'm thinking about. Although I'm a very aggressive person, I don't intentionally hurt people - physically or emotionally. I'd say "never" but that's not really true. I've tried, but it doesn't work. I can't do it. I have almost never used violence to try to get what I want from someone. I've never threatened, implied, intimated, violence. But women are afraid of me. And I don't mean women on the street. I mean my wife, who's known me for almost 50 years. That's not unique. I know other women in long-term, non-violent relationships who feel the same way toward their husband, boyfriend.

On the other hand, women can be very violent emotionally. I think women underestimate how much men are afraid of them, of their scorn. — T Clark

I decided I wouldn't participate in this thread anymore but I decided to come back. I had been following and enjoying all your shenanigans. But, in the words of that great American philosopher, P.T.S Mann, "That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more.” So, yes, I am the mysterious "Somebody," "the Poster." Looking back on what I said, I think I could have been clearer. I'll try again:

It is my observation that relations between men and women are strongly affected by fear. I think I gave the impression I was only talking about people in intimate relationships. That's not what I meant. I think relations between men and women in general may be affected. I meant to use my relationship with my wife as an extreme example. Even women in long-term, intimate, non-violent relationships may be physically afraid of their partners. I was not clear enough in my language. I also went on to note that men may also be afraid of their partner's scorn, but I didn't expand on that.

Note - I didn't say the situation was "normal" or "common." I said my situation was not unique. On the other hand, I do think it is common.

[Text deleted by poster]

@frank

Frank: I realise that you decided to avoid mentioning T because you wanted to avoid a shit-storm. Nevertheless it makes sense that T responded strongly with an insult, considering that what you wrote was easily interpretable as a thinly veiled insult to him, his wife and their marriage.

T Clark: I know that you were very insulted by Frank and felt the need to defend yourself/wife/relationship. A better approach than responding with insults might've been explaining why the interpretation was wrong.

It'd be a shame if the thread devolved into shit-posts. I'm surprised it hasn't already to be honest, considering how personal most of the details are. Chin up, dealing with the otherness in yourself hard.

It'd be a shame if the thread devolved into shit-posts. I'm surprised it hasn't already to be honest, considering how personal most of the details are. — fdrake

As I said in my PM, I will not let this discussion devolve. At least not based on any further contribution from me. I appreciate your measured response.