Our morality and intellect alone cannot be any real message of value to our brains. — TranscendedRealms

I think human values are just that - human. They are part of our nature built in by evolution. They are in our brain, but also the rest of our bodies. Ideas of values come from these built-in feelings, attitudes.

Lastly, if we live in a spiritual universe rather than a purely naturalistic one, then our basic emotions would be where our spirits/souls get the real message that things have value and worth in our lives. Our basic emotions would, thus, be the soul's inner light and inner darkness. — TranscendedRealms

I wouldn't say we live in a spiritual universe, I'd say we live in a human universe. You can't separate physical reality from human perceptions, conceptions, or feelings. What we call "objective reality" is an interaction between us and whatever it is that's out there.

Just as how there is no moral and intellectual form of, for example, physical pain, physical pleasure, sight, hearing, smell, taste, heat, cold, hunger, and thirst, there can also be no moral and intellectual form of emotions and there can be no moral/intellectual message of value to our brains. Our morality and intellect alone can only give us the idea of values, smell, colors, sounds, heat, cold, etc., but not any real form of those things.

Pleasant (positive) emotions are the message of good and beautiful value to our brains and unpleasant (negative) emotions are the message of bad, horrible, and disgusting value to our brains. Unfortunately, positive emotions are very fleeting things. There are many people who struggle with depression due to no fault of their own and there are many people who struggle with misery and much despair in general.

Just as how there is no moral and intellectual form of, for example, physical pain, physical pleasure, sight, hearing, smell, taste, heat, cold, hunger, and thirst, there can also be no moral and intellectual form of emotions and there can be no moral/intellectual message of value to our brains. Our morality and intellect alone can only give us the idea of values, smell, colors, sounds, heat, cold, etc., but not any real form of those things. — TranscendedRealms

I can't tell. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me when I said...

I think human values are just that - human. They are part of our nature built in by evolution. They are in our brain, but also the rest of our bodies. Ideas of values come from these built-in feelings, attitudes. — T Clark

Pleasant (positive) emotions are the message of good and beautiful value to our brains and unpleasant (negative) emotions are the message of bad, horrible, and disgusting value to our brains. Unfortunately, positive emotions are very fleeting things. There are many people who struggle with depression due to no fault of their own and there are many people who struggle with misery and much despair in general. — TranscendedRealms

My first thought when I read your original post was that your view of hedonism as the only good thing in life is a very simplistic view. To me, this statement supports that thought. In my experience, values are not primarily pleasant or unpleasant emotions or attitudes, they go much deeper than that. To a significant extent, those feelings and attitudes come from our values.

spiritual universe — TranscendedRealms

human universe — T Clark

[quote=Bitter Crank)physical universe[/quote]

TR says in his introduction on Deviant Art: "Also, I would want you to read everything in my book and not skip past parts that I've already talked about in this summary."

That might be what you would want, but just because I look at a book doesn't mean I am going to read the whole thing--or any of it--especially if the author is telling me to read everything.

I demand the author seize my attention within seconds of my eyes landing on any of his or her text. This actually happens quite often: I'll open a book randomly, look at a paragraph and say, "Oh, this sounds interesting." Possible book purchase. Or "This sounds like bullshit". Back on the shelf it goes.

I always read for pleasure, even if it is a book on concentration camps. A well written book which presents the history of the horrible is a pleasure to read --the content is not a pleasure to receive, but the delivery can be.

Conversely, badly written books are a drag to read no matter what their content. A badly written joke book is not amusing.

But pleasant and unpleasant emotions are value judgments which means they give our lives value since they allow us to perceive value in regards to certain things, moments, people, and situations. Haven't you ever heard someone say to not listen to what your emotions tell you? Emotions tell you that certain things, people, or situations are disgusting, horrible, or beautiful. Furthermore, haven't you ever felt that someone in your life was a horrible or beautiful person? See, this is what I mean here when I say that emotions really are value judgments. Many people would deny this, but it is a fact.

So, you can see why I do not trust humanity and their values since so many people are in denial and are delusional. They are not awakened to the truth. I will also point out a quote which shows how emotions are value judgments. Although, I disagree with the idea of our reasoned thoughts being real value judgments since they are not the real message of value to our brains:

Emotions are value judgments too. For example, if you are physically hurt, and the doctor treating you causes you pain during treatment, do you become angry and bite him? No, because you are able to override your instinctive anger and fear at someone causing you pain with your ability to reason that the treatment is necessary and the pain is temporary. But a dog can't reason, and will bite to stop the person causing the pain. Both the instinctive emotions AND the reasoned thoughts are value judgments.

Another thing here. I do not agree that there are the higher emotions which are the emotions founded upon morality and intellect. I think it can only be the lower, basic emotions that are the real emotions. One last thing here. Since humanity treats their basic emotions as nothing more than just emotions, then this means they are in denial of the fact that they are value judgments.

Therefore, humanity could also be in denial when it comes to their moral and intellectual value judgments. They think they are the real value judgments that give their lives value when they never were. Our basic emotions were the real value judgments all along and humanity had it all backwards. They think I have it backwards, but I don't think this is the case.

See, this is what I mean here when I say that emotions really are value judgments. Many people would deny this, but it is a fact. — TranscendedRealms

Well, no, it's not a fact. It's your interpretation and I think it shows a misunderstanding of what "value" and "judgment" mean. Emotions are not value judgments, they are not "judgments" at all.

So, you can see why I do not trust humanity and their values since so many people are in denial and are delusional. They are not awakened to the truth. — TranscendedRealms

I don't see how this follows. I get frustrated by people on the forum who refuse to accept a person's behavior as a sign of their values. They also require that the person come to those values by the prescribed process. Doing good is not enough, they have to do good for reasons I think are good. It's funny, the issue often comes up from people who think values should come from reason and will rather than from emotion and intuition. You guys should get together and duke it out.

Following up on my last post, here's a poem, "Holy Brethren", from one of my favorite poets, Carl Dennis.

If I don't believe the doctrine of my neighbor's church,
The church of the Holy Brethren, that we're sinners all
And need to repent each night and ask forgiveness,
I don't believe it's foolish. Some metaphor of the truth
ls hidden there, a crust from the loaf baked long ago
And broken and scattered among the seekers.
And if his church nurtures his many virtues,
I'm glad he belongs, my generous neighbor,
First to help when my basement's flooded,
Last to leave the soup kitchen of his church
Saturday night, when others have gone dancing.
If l had the money I'd make a contribution
So the clapboard walls of his church
In the low-rent district could be repainted.
I'd lift its burden of debt to lift his spirits.
Then he'd be less likely to hunt around
For an incarnation that seems more tangible,
More potent than the one his church is built on.
It hurts me to see how he's planted in front of his house
A thirty-foot, silvery flagpole with a ten-foot flag.
I wish its flapping sounded like the soft voices of sinners

The idea that our basic emotions are value judgments is supported by skeptics and neuroscientists. I know you would disagree with the idea of our basic emotions having built-in values, but go ask other people and scientists in this world. They would say otherwise. They would agree with my idea that our basic emotions have a built-in value to them. As a matter of fact, I have engaged with one skeptic/neuroscientist who agrees that our basic emotions are value judgments. His username would be Nikki Nyx of the Skeptics Society Forum. I will point out the link to the very post he talks about emotions being value judgments. His post is quite long. But look for what he says here and I will, again, quote it out:

Emotions are value judgments too. For example, if you are physically hurt, and the doctor treating you causes you pain during treatment, do you become angry and bite him? No, because you are able to override your instinctive anger and fear at someone causing you pain with your ability to reason that the treatment is necessary and the pain is temporary. But a dog can't reason, and will bite to stop the person causing the pain. Both the instinctive emotions AND the reasoned thoughts are value judgments.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=605797#p605797

The idea that our basic emotions are value judgments is supported by skeptics and neuroscientists. I know you would disagree with the idea of our basic emotions having built-in values, but go ask other people and scientists in this world. They would say otherwise. They would agree with my idea that our basic emotions have a built-in value to them. As a matter of fact, I have engaged with one skeptic/neuroscientist who agrees that our basic emotions are value judgments. — TranscendedRealms

Sorry. That doesn't work as an argument. The fact that others agree with you is not the point. I disagree with you and I've given reasons. Respond to those.

People live by false values all the time. There are, for example, people who believed in Thor and these values that say we must worship Thor were all false. I am not sure exactly what you were saying, but if you are saying that the values of others are true just because they act as though they are real values, then this would be false. Just because people act certain ways and behave certain ways does not make their values real.

People live by false values all the time. There are, for example, people who believed in Thor and these values that say we must worship Thor were all false. I am not sure exactly what you were saying, but if you are saying that the values of others are true just because they act as though they are real values, then this would be false. Just because people act certain ways and behave certain ways does not make their values real. — TranscendedRealms

Worshiping Thor as a god is not a value, it's a belief. Values are not true, they are expressions of what people think is important. Your values are not right, and mine are not wrong. You might judge, as a statement of value, that your values are good and mine are bad, but that's not the same thing.

I don't think you've defined your terms well enough. We're getting mixed up.

But people can be delusional and in denial of their own personal experience. Just because people claim they are perceiving and experiencing real value in their lives through their morality and intellect does not make it so. Furthermore, just because people act and behave as though they are does not make it so either.

But people can be delusional and in denial of their own personal experience. Just because people claim they are perceiving and experiencing real value in their lives through their morality and intellect does not make it so. Furthermore, just because people act and behave as though they are does not make it so either. — TranscendedRealms

So...I say "I like chicken salad." You say "No you don't." Is that right?

Our positive emotions are the only things that can allow us to like and enjoy things. Therefore, if you were completely depressed and you couldn't feel any positive emotions at all, then you would be delusional in saying that you like chicken salad. You would be deluding yourself into believing you like it when you really don't.

Our positive emotions are the only things that can allow us to like and enjoy things. Therefore, if you were completely depressed and you couldn't feel any positive emotions at all, then you would be delusional in saying that you like chicken salad. You would be deluding yourself into believing you like it when you really don't. — TranscendedRealms

I've been really depressed, but I still liked chicken salad. Just don't put curry in it please.

*post deleted*

Here is a new and better post:

Proof That Our Emotions Are The Perception Of Value: I talk about how our emotions allow us to perceive value. Many people would disagree with this idea because many people think that emotions are just simply emotions (i.e. how we feel about things) and nothing more. But I think this example I am going to give you might prove how our emotions really are the perception of value. When you, for example, feel fear from being in a dangerous situation, that feeling of fear is a chemical message to the brain which is telling your brain something. It tells your brain "THREAT!!!" or "DANGER!!!" This would be no different than your brain getting the message "IT MATTERS!!!"

When something matters to you, this means it is something good or bad from your perspective. For example, if the loss of your loved one mattered to you or if getting a new movie is something that mattered to you, then this means those things had value from your perspective. Therefore, when you feel fear, that is no different than your brain getting the message that this dangerous situation you felt fear from was something bad. So, I can honestly conclude that emotions are the message of value to our brains. But since people are in denial of this, then they are in denial of their own emotions. That is why I do not trust humanity because people are often times in denial and delusional.

Humanity currently believes in this idea that emotions being the source of value in our lives is for the weak-minded and that the real value comes about through our intellect, character, and morals. I think humanity is also in denial when it comes to their moral and intellectual based values because I don't think these are real values. In essence, my views oppose the vast majority of humanity. I think the emotional values are the real values while the values founded upon morality, intellect, and character are the fake values. But humanity thinks the opposite. Humanity thinks I am the one who is delusional and in denial and I think it is humanity that is delusional and in denial.