I think the problem is a a given to life, not that the problem has the option to be given. It is just there, given to everyone. — Intrigued
I enjoy solving problems, and the problem of finding goods is a crucial issue, It adds zest to my life, when I succeed it is fantastic, when I fail it's depressing, but I enjoy the striving.
Still working on the others. — Cavacava
I haven't finishing reading your post, but if you hadn't shown up pretty quick, I would have sent you a telegraph alerting you to the topic's bright, sunny, breezy existence needing your special seasoning insight. — Bitter Crank
Imagine if Stephen Hawking's parents known that their son would have a rare early-onset, slow-progressing form of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and they practiced antinatalism, then we would not have one of the brightest minds of our generation — Cavacava
I didn't say that one out loud. But, as you say, an event of conspicuous consumption but also plain and simply mindlessly showing off (sorry T Clark, being arrogant here) is way too much for me and my expression made that clear. — TimeLine
But there is an ambiguity in our understanding of the sentiment. The first and broadly understood - i.e. the boo friggidy hoo my life is shit emotions - is only bad insofar as the individual does not actively engage in making those circumstances better and if they are able to articulate it, then they are able to improve it. I am not fond of this type of emotion, it is too static, defeatist and unchanging for my taste. — TimeLine
Are you implying that love - and again, not that sentiment of a mushy romance but think of 'brotherly love' when I say it or the capacity to give love (emotion/compassion) - as a Will that drives us, are you suggesting the endeavour to reach happiness by regulating and correctly applying our emotions and by being passionate against injustice or bad things happening to others, that contains no 'purpose'? As you say: — TimeLine
Humans don't need to be born at this stage; I openly told a woman at work who said that she spent $50,000 on IVF treatment that she was an idiot. We have more than enough children being born for the wrong reasons that need our attention (love, compassion, empathy, they are emotions that connect us) and why I myself do not wish to give birth but will (in the future) adopt a child. There is no 'black and white, strict, clear' reality here; IVF treatment and anti-natalism are two extremes and what we need is to apply ourselves with more humanity, compassion and knowledge that modifies our recalcitrant emotions and project it correctly to the external world, to direct the implicit and subjective experience to - as Searl said - direction of fit. — TimeLine
Me and IVF are buddies. She calls me Dr. Evil. — TimeLine
I love the fact that you have set such high standards for yourself. I think you're the only person I've ever met who might be able to meet them. It's when you start applying the same standards to others that you run off the tracks. Ms. Smarty Pants. — T Clark
Well, I didn't mention love at all, so I am not sure where this fits into my pessimism or antinatalism. I guess, if I was to pull out something, it is your use of "purpose" in connection with compassion. If my argument is that no one needs to be born to carry out any X reason. Then no, no one needs to be born to be given the problem of trying to overcome selfishness and show compassion for fellow man in the first place. In other words, though compassion should be something sought once born, it is not a reason to be born. — schopenhauer1
That is, to the extent that antinatalism makes people miserable, which it undoubtedly does, then based on the very negative utilitarian principles on which it is based, one is obliged to reject it. — Thorongil
Forgive me, but are you not pro-celibacy? I should think that to be self-refuting, which just makes the logic of your entire argument problematic. — TimeLine
You should think what to be self-refuting? Being in favor of celibacy? Why would it be? — Thorongil
Alas, it seems to me that the number of loving parents, call them Schopenhauerian parents, is rather small. Indeed, Schopenhauer's own parents lacked the compassion he emphasized and which you describe. — Thorongil
In any case, the antinatalist, beholden to negative utilitarianism, cannot abide so much as an ounce of suffering if he is to remain consistent. There is a reason schop1 speaks of "structural suffering." Assuming a moral imperative to reduce all suffering, then procreation is immoral, as even the most compassionate parents in the world will not produce a life that does not suffer and thereby add to its total. — Thorongil
It is wrong to spend $50,000 on a wedding, I can even go so far as to call that unethical... it is not justifiable ethically when there are thousands of children in need — TimeLine
but I assume it attracts in similar vein to your original rejection of anti-natalism the same self-refuting irony — TimeLine
it is only wrong when it dictates your Will to act above and over compassion and love — TimeLine
I might even take Schopenhauer1 along to see if I can't arrange experiences which will be so thrilling he'll change his mind about the downside of nativity. Though, $50,000 isn't all that much when you get down to it. In order to change Schopenhauer1's mind, I might have to also have the $50,000 from the in vitro fertilization operation. Get me $100,000, TimeLine, and I'll throw in a second lunch and several movies. Maybe we could pick up a few philosophers and go bar hopping, or something. — Bitter Crank
No, it may be absolutely necessary to spend that or maybe more if you can afford it on the wedding. If you're worth nothing when you marry a woman, you don't have to. If you're a millionaire, then you sure as hell have to, otherwise she will think that she doesn't mean anything to you. In other words, the marriage must be a material effort it mustn't be easy. If you can easily afford to spend $10,000 on the wedding, then $10,000 is not enough. It's the effort that binds people together - something easily gained is easily lost.It is wrong to spend $50,000 on a wedding, I can even go so far as to call that unethical. — TimeLine
That is, to the extent that antinatalism makes people miserable, which it undoubtedly does, — Thorongil
although I believe neither anti-natalism nor celibacy makes people miserable — TimeLine
Are you saying that celibacy makes people miserable? — Thorongil
Antinatalism is different, for it is not a way of life but a philosophical position that assigns a negative value to perhaps the most common, basic, and accepted acts of human existence, which in turn changes the complexion of one's everyday experience of life considerably, and for the worse. — Thorongil
I have no firm statistics, but the suicide rate among antinatalists is doubtless very high. — Thorongil
It is therefore naive to believe it can be genuinely maintained in a theoretical sense without it affecting one's psychological, emotional, and possibly physical state, and again, for the worse. In sum, celibacy isn't defined as a moral judgment, whereas antinatalism is, and because it is, and because of the nature of that which it judges, it leads to almost perpetual anguish and misery. — Thorongil
celibacy isn't defined as a moral judgment, whereas antinatalism is — Thorongil
For the sake of argument, wouldn't it dictate your will to act above and over compassion and love for the duration of copulation? Otherwise, what does your qualification here mean? — Thorongil
It's not necessarily morally good, but it can certainly be morally good.Pretty arrogant of you not to explain why a relationship based solely on sexual pleasure and economics is morally good. — TimeLine
The high rate of divorce has to do primarily with the lack of moral education. Contributing factors are also wrong social expectations and social relationships. One doesn't need to love the other, once married, in order to respect them, live with them and not divorce them - and act as one team together. That just requires moral discipline once a decision was made (to get married) to stick with it. Most people lack that.The high rate of divorce and failed relationships that were originally initiated solely for economics and sexual pleasure implies an absence of love and that emptiness impacts on the development of the child whether directly or indirectly. — TimeLine
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