I am genuinely thrilled for you to be able to say you are "content". (L) — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Why?

The "reality" is that Cannabis is not always a "problem". Did you read the study I linked my last post to or were you still responding emotionally? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I'm not sure what part of the following you did not understand.

The problem transcends your backyard. — TimeLine

There are other issues here then medicinal cannabis and I really do not want to discuss the highly addictive chemical THC and cannabis with you. Alcohol, for instance, is appreciated socially and yet it is responsible for more harm than the deadliest of illicit drugs. Thanks for the link, I guess? I could give you this, and this or this, but then, what is the point if you are going to go back to the same 'cannabis is good for people' when I am trying to say that drugs are bad for people, for communities, for the economy both nationally and globally.

29.5 million people worldwide are addicted to illicit drugs but with no list of what drugs they are addicted to, it makes the number less relevant to your using it as support. Once again I will repeat myself that Cannabis is not a physically addictive drug. Please provide a breakdown of that statistic: of what drugs and where in the world the addiction is if you want to cite your assertions. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Ok, so it appears you have some fixation with cannabis. I am interested in the effect substance abuse can have globally. So, as the World Health Organisation stated, while it can provide therapeutic relief for medicinal purposes to cancer and HIV patients, the link to youth culture enables the following that far outweighs its benefits:

Cannabis impairs cognitive development (capabilities of learning), including associative processes; free recall of previously learned items is often impaired when cannabi is used both during learning and recall periods;

Cannabis impairs psychomotor performance in a wide variety of tasks, such as motor coordination, divided attention, and operative tasks of many types; human performance on complex machinery can be impaired for as long as 24 hours after smoking as little as 20 mg of THC in cannabis; there is an increased risk of motor vehicle accidents among persons who drive when intoxicated by cannabis.

Chronic health effects of cannabis use:

selective impairment of cognitive functioning which include the organization and integration of complex information involving various mechanisms of attention and memory processes;

prolonged use may lead to greater impairment, which may not recover with cessation of use, and which could affect daily life functions;

development of a cannabis dependence syndrome characterized by a loss of control over cannabis use is likely in chronic users;

cannabis use can exacerbate schizophrenia in affected individuals;

epithetial injury of the trachea and major bronchi is caused by long-term cannabis smoking;

airway injury, lung inflammation, and impaired pulmonary defence against infection from persistent cannabis consumption over prolonged periods;

heavy cannabis consumption is associated with a higher prevalence of symptoms of chronic bronchitis and a higher incidence of acute bronchitis than in the non-smoking cohort;

cannabis used during pregnancy is associated with impairment in fetal development leading to a reduction in birth weight;

cannabis use during pregnancy may lead to postnatal risk of rare forms of cancer although more research is needed in this area.

When I say 29.5 million, I am saying, "those who engage in high risk consumption of drugs, e.g, people who inject drugs, use drugs on a daily basis and/or people diagnosed with drug use disorders based on clinical criteria contained in ICD-10 or DSM V."

Cannabis has a prevalence of 183.3 million users worldwide
Opioids (opiates and prescription opioids) of 35 million users.
Opiates has 17.7 million users.
Cocaine has 17.1 million users.
Amphetamines has 37 million users.
Ecstasy has 21.6 million users.

Globally, it is estimated that 13.1% of 12 million people who inject drugs have HIV Aids, leading to further distribution of the deadly disease particularly in the case of some developing countries. More than 50% have hepatitis that causes 220,000 of that total to die each year, while 60,000 are attributed to HIV.

Leading to 39.6% die annually due to drug-related mortality, while it is the cause of a number of health-related concerns including disease, disability, psychiatric disorder and premature death. 35% of organised crime units are for the drug-trafficking trade that is connected to other major crimes including human trafficking, people smuggling, fraud and property crime.

Here, read it yourself. I hope that helps you with whatever the reasoning is behind your request?

As this is a philosophy forum, can I suggest that the most fundamental discussion about recreational drugs is not the whys and wherefores of drugs that are currently out there, but the use of drugs in principle.. Could I ask whether you are against recreational drug use in principle? — Jake Tarragon

How exactly you are unable to link the 'use of drugs in principle' without ascertaining some understanding of the 'whys' and 'wherefores' is somewhat a mystery to me. What has what I believe got to do with anything? Whilst I understand that the question is as follows:

Anyway, not to feel melancholy over something so insidious and destructive, I was wondering why do some people resort to drugs to fill their time? We live in a drug culture, that's, I think, intuitively obvious. — Posty McPostface

My initial post described by example what I later stated to be caused by self-esteem issues and a sense of apathy, stress and anxiety, as well as accessibility.

How exactly you are unable to link the 'use of drugs in principle' without ascertaining some understanding of the 'whys' and 'wherefores' is somewhat a mystery to me — TimeLine

It is quite easy because the "whys and wherefores" I mentioned were "whys and wherefores" of specific drugs. Some people are against the notion - in principle - of using chemicals recreationally to enhance brain activity - and I was wondering if you were one such person, because I feel that a discussion of why one might be for or against recreational drug use in principle would be an interesting aspect of this discussion. Perhaps you think I should open a new thread devoted to the question before answering my enquiry?

I see, perhaps there is no need to start another thread as it is generally relatable to this discussion. I do not endorse the use of recreational drugs, however I am not anti- in the way most think, as in I do not judge drug-users or hate or be afraid of them for doing so because there are reasons that compel people to substance abuse. I have lost friends to it, I work with young people and have seen it tear the most beautiful people apart, but more importantly they lose who the really are, that sense of self, developing a sort of apathy where they depend on the wrong people. As said by William Styron:

"I felt loss at every hand. The loss of self-esteem is a celebrated symptom, and my own sense of self had all but disappeared, along with any self-reliance. This loss can quickly degenerate into dependence, and from dependence into infantile dread. One dreads the loss of all things, all people close and dear. There is an acute fear of abandonment.”

As I said, I have never taken any drugs neither do I drink alcohol, but pressure caused me to smoke cigarettes once, which I haven't touched in a number of years. And I really cared for someone who was clearly affected by his environment and substance abuse; such a brilliant mind all but gone.

Thanks for your reply - I can see that safety issues are paramount in your thinking. However, in order to gain a complete picture, I think you need to realise that there are great benefits to be had from careful choice and use of mind altering substances, and that many people feel their lives are greatly enhanced by them.

But only for as long as the drug is in effect and this is what leads to addiction and the terrible results that follow. Why else would anyone be compelled to take it? If drugs enhance their lives, it overcomes the anxiety, the depression, the feelings of isolation and emptiness and keeps a person going. So, indeed, I already do realise that there are great benefits, but these benefits are faux, never long-term and leads one down to self-destruction and not self-empowerment. How do you feel about that? I am genuinely interested in your opinion.

Benefits, such as cerebral, perceptual, developmental, social, hedonistic, intellectual, creative etc etc accrue to people without any particular mental health issues, as well as to some of those who do have such issues. Calling it "faux" begs the question as to what in life is not "faux". You appear to have a gap in your knowledge about how many people are able to use drugs beneficially and without addiction or self destruction.

Clearly, if you are smart enough to understand what "begging the question" means, why are you begging the question with:

You appear to have a gap in your knowledge about how many people are able to use drugs beneficially and without addiction or self destruction — Jake Tarragon

The reality of this self-destruction far outweigh the benefits.

Benefits, such as cerebral, perceptual, developmental, social, hedonistic, intellectual, creative etc etc accrue to people without any particular mental health issues, as well as to some of those who do have such issues. — Jake Tarragon

As I have been saying repeatedly to you, the benefits are what compel otherwise why would anyone want to take drugs? The brain is the network that architects everything that you experience and the structural networks of neurons send signals and messages both within it and throughout the body that harmoniously organises everything that you think and feel. It is not just some random pill or smoke or injection, but the chemicals from these drugs mimic this neural network and interfere in the natural neurotransmitter messages and receptors and changes how the message is delivered (i.e. dopamine). While it can activate these "faux" transmissions (that is, unnatural) it is nothing like the brain' natural neurotransmitters and so it releases abnormal disruptions that ultimate damage how the brain communicates information.



From an evolutionary perspective, we are wired to desire pleasure and feelings of euphoria and we seek this (in our brains), thus when we active this area of the brain, it continuously motivates us to want more. While you think that this pleasure is gratifying, or as you say cerebral, perceptual, developmental, social, hedonistic, intellectual, creative, and the fact that it produces such feelings in a much more amplified manner than naturally, the reality is that any lengthy or continuous use eventually impairs how our brain functions as its natural neurotransmitters decrease by its faux replacement or the drug-induced dopamines. Overtime, when our natural processes start to dysfunction the person begins to experience a depressed state that thus enables the cycle of addiction, to keep that person going (the withdrawal). It is that one-off experience that may not effect you depending on the network or circuits in your brain as some are more prone to addiction than others, but over time the damage of natural neurotransmitters is completely disrupted.

the reality is that any lengthy or continuous use eventually impairs how our brain functions — TimeLine

How long is lengthy?

What if a drug was produced, and the evidence convinced you that it was not harmful - would you accept its use?

We are not talking what ifs. If your not going to properly discuss the topic, best not to talk at all.

"What ifs" are a fundamental tool of philosophy.

Reason is the fundamental tool, otherwise you'll find yourself sliding gleefully along a slippery slope.

And it's not reasonable to pose a hypothetical question?

It is a hypothetical question with the intention of leading to an absurd result. What is the point of travelling tirelessly to a dead-end when reason dictates that there is enough facts that we can work with.

It is a hypothetical question with the intention of leading to an absurd result. — TimeLine

Well let's see if the result could be absurd.

Suppose you answer "yes, I would accept the use of a drug if I was convinced it was safe". Then I would be sure that you had no hidden agenda or belief regarding drug use besides safety, such as personal distate or religious indoctrination.

If you answer "no ..." then the converse would be true - I would be sure that you did have a hidden agenda or belief - the existence of which, if not the exact nature, has now come in to the open because of your answer.

The role of "hidden beliefs" in discussion is crucial. For example, suppose a person declared that rugby was too dangerous for women to play, and that this person cited a lot of evidence to back their statement up. If it transpired that this person also believed that women should not play sport at all, then one would have to lower the priority one gave to that person's opinions on the matter of women playing rugby. So it is important to seek out hidden agendas.

What are you talking about? Are you saying that if you had a hidden agenda that supports the use of recreational drugs, that you would attempt to divert the facts by discussing how "hidden beliefs" in the discussion is crucial? Your paranoia is rather unbecoming.

I don't have a hidden agenda about supporting the use of recreational drugs because I have clearly stated that I do support such use. I am quite happy to discuss matters such as what context of use I support, and what context I don't.I am trying to present a reasoned approach that balances harms and benefits. Heck it all ... I am even happy to answer hypothetical questions!

I am trying to present a reasoned approach that balances harms and benefits. — Jake Tarragon

Where? I went back and re-read everything you have said and I see very little of this "reasoned approach" you speak of and I guess you can tell yourself what you like, but you are not actually making any arguments at all. I could have a more intellectually thrilling conversation with a dried leaf. And no, I am not talking about hashish.

But only for as long as the drug is in effect and this is what leads to addiction and the terrible results that follow. Why else would anyone be compelled to take it? If drugs enhance their lives, it overcomes the anxiety, the depression, the feelings of isolation and emptiness and keeps a person going. So, indeed, I already do realise that there are great benefits, but these benefits are faux, never long-term and leads one down to self-destruction and not self-empowerment. How do you feel about that? I am genuinely interested in your opinion. — TimeLine

I would not be the person I am today without the drug use I experienced when I was younger. Clearly the effects are long term. Also, I would be dissatisfied with myself and unhappy if I didn't belief that those effects were beneficial towards making me the person that I am today. However, some of the short term effects, specifically involving experimentation and over usage, were harmful. So I disagree with you, I think that the long term effects are beneficial, while the short term effects are harmful. This is common to many medical procedures, short term pain for long term gain.

I would not be the person I am today without the drug use I experienced when I was younger. Clearly the effects are long term. Also, I would be dissatisfied with myself and unhappy if I didn't belief that those effects were beneficial towards making me the person that I am today. However, some of the short term effects, specifically involving experimentation and over usage, were harmful. So I disagree with you, I think that the long term effects are beneficial, while the short term effects are harmful. This is common to many medical procedures, short term pain for long term gain. — Metaphysician Undercover

I am unable to ascertain the actuality of your situation because I am unaware of all the details, but just as William Styron said, his addiction to alcohol indeed helped him with his creative work and capacity to socialise until he stopped drinking and experienced withdrawal (in the neural networks); his brain no longer had the capacity to communicate as it would have naturally prior to his dependence and as such for several months following experienced profound sense of anxiety and doom that led him to almost-suicide. Luckily, he was able to survive those months through medical intervention until one day he experienced an epiphany that happiness in life is actually available (which is basically his brain now functioning naturally) and he healed from that point. He says that the terrible experience of depression and anxiety, now overcome and never returning to alcohol, has made him feel more happier than he has ever felt before. So, perhaps from a different angle, those that are able to overcome any addiction or substance abuse do fare a greater advantage.

The problem here is that clearly not everyone is as lucky.

Since we have been kindly offered a list of all the noxious effects of marijuana consumption, without so much as a nod to an effort to compensate this with it's positive health effects, let's just mention that marijuana is :

1) a medical cure and prevention for glaucoma.
2) contrary to previously stated, there is evidence that marijuana consumption reverse effects of carcinogenic product consumption, as well as increasing resistence to such effects.
3) it helps control epilepsy and lower the amounts of seizures.
4) in fact it helps prevent seizures in a slew of different cases, ex Dravet's Syndrome
5) smaller doses act as sedative, and as such is a good remedy for anxious personnalities
6) act to slow the progression of Alzheimer, and might actually helps preventing it
7) is one of the only effective way of easing pain symptom in over 30 types of sclerosis
8) is an excellent muscle relaxant, thus greatly helping with different spasm issues.
9) increases the treatment effectiveness of a few diseases, including Hepatitis C
10) can be used to treat inflammatory bowel disease
11) an effective relief for arthritis.
12) a great way to accelerate your metabolism slightly and improve your carbohydrate intake efficiency
13) a treatment for lupus
14) associated with an increase in creativity and verbal fluency
15) currently studied as a potential treatment for PTSD
16) helps contain the brain damage normally caused by a stroke or concussion, after the fact
17) a way to disturb REM sleep, to the point where regular users will tend to stop dreaming altogether. while the advantage might not seem immediate, some people are plagued by terrifying nightmares, and clinical studies have shown that marijuana almost always prevents these.
18) a way to motivate appetite.
19) an effective and strategic replacement for other chemical dependencies.

Apart from the negativity THC get's (and rightly so in some regards), there is a host of other components to marijuana, such as; CBD, CBN, CBG, etc. that are only being investigated now due to a lift on the ban of studying the effects of marijuana in universities.

I don't like the psychoactivity, just the positive effects of CBD mostly. I also rarely smoke cannabis. Get too much anxiety.

Anyway, not to feel melancholy over something so insidious and destructive, I was wondering why do some people resort to drugs to fill their time? — Posty McPostface

Re : the OP

I have been smoking marijuana daily for nearly 13 years now. In principle I am fine with acid, mushroom and occasionnal cocaine consumption, but I have never tried those nor have been really tempted to. I actually used to be incredibly strict about anything else than marijuana, and once threw out a party out of my place when I figured people had brought cocaine and meth. Meth and speed are the plagues and curses of these times, imho. I have seen meth turn a group of coherent young people into a rabid violent mob. About 20 kids beat the crap out of another for absolutely no reason. The guy lost all but 4 teeth. I have had a gigantic drunk half-naked dude swing a machete at me, and I wasn't half as terrified as when I saw that other group beat that kid.

I smoke almost exclusively at night, or right when waking up when I do not have work or university. I find it doesn't affect my focus much, although I would be very badly placed to say if it affects my memory at all : I've always had the most terrible memory for anything else than conversations.

The one negative is with withdrawal nightmares. If I find myself in a context where I can't smoke at all before sleeping, then I will sleep terribly, and if I do, I'll have the most psychotic ultra vivid dreams ever.

A bit of a rant. I guess if I'd have to say why I smoke, I'd have to go back to why I started at first, and then why I kept on doing it, and then on why I'm doing it now. The reasons changes. It started because I had access to it (as a teen, I fed the cats of an old lady who would grow some in her basement, so I'd nip a bud now and then) and my friends had shown interest. When I tried it, the effect where initially very very strong, and very very fun. Then I stopped because it wasn't really that important or easy to get. I started again when I went bumming in Alberta, because that's what bums do if they don't do something worse. Never ever been a fan of alcool. And with the time, when I stopped being a bum, I just realized that most of my friends were fine with it, even if I did smoke quite a bit more than them. Now it's just that the habit still mostly fits my lifestyle, and the habit is still, albeit less, fun.

The one negative is with withdrawal nightmares. If I find myself in a context where I can't smoke at all before sleeping, then I will sleep terribly, and if I do, I'll have the most psychotic ultra vivid dreams ever. — Akanthinos

Is this what compels you to continue, or is there a sense of apathy to your general health and well-being? Your initial reasons were accessibility, but as this is followed by being a "bum" I take it that you never really had much ambition or guidance. The fact that you point out that your friends were fine with it also makes me assume your environment is not the best. I guess the question is whether this occurred before or after this eventual continuity.

am unable to ascertain the actuality of your situation because I am unaware of all the details, but just as William Styron said, his addiction to alcohol indeed helped him with his creative work and capacity to socialise until he stopped drinking and experienced withdrawal (in the neural networks); his brain no longer had the capacity to communicate as it would have naturally prior to his dependence and as such for several months following experienced profound sense of anxiety and doom that led him to almost-suicide. — TimeLine

I never experienced any such withdrawal. I drank lots, smoked lots of weed, and every once in a while I would quit one or the other for a month or two to see what it was like. I don't remember any withdrawal problem. Eventually my usage lessened. I do have withdrawal problems when I quit coffee though. So if you judge the drug based on the withdrawal, coffee appears to be worse for me than weed or alcohol.

I don't like the psychoactivity, just the positive effects of CBD mostly. I also rarely smoke cannabis. Get too much anxiety. — Posty McPostface

Do you smoke CBD weed? If so, for what ailments, or benefits?

A) Bored with their own lives or want to escape from their mundane lives — Posty McPostface

I do think the reasons change but this must, for me at least, be the main reason. It is absolutely a matter of instant gratitude. But, there's sugar, and caffeine, and alcohol, and plenty of other legal drugs that have 'bad' side-effects just like the illegal ones. Our own sense of morality and what is acceptable comes from the society we get raised in and well, when you get raised up in a society that promotes consumerism and dependence on certain products (still drugs), it's easy to see how righteous people are in their choice to take a drug that by far compared to most others is harmless.

I think if you define drug as a "mind-altering substance", many things are mind-altering substances. Chocolate, a lover, a book. All these things have positive and negative effects on your psyche. We all choose to partake in things that will both give us a 'good' and a 'bad'. Everyone places different values towards certain faculties. Some might say memory is so important. Some might say your breathing. Some might say your ability to use your liver. Point is, it's a matter of perspective. I, smoking weed and the occasional psychedelic, bash on alcohol all day. There certainly is good effects to alcohol as well as the bad. But really, for the better of future teens, yeah alcohol is bad.

Your initial reasons were accessibility, but as this is followed by being a "bum" I take it that you never really had much ambition or guidance. — TimeLine

People bum out for a lot of reason. Mine was that my dad had just decided to make a hole in the wall with me, and I had had enough of semi-abusive helicopter parents by the time I had turned 18. That seemed conducive to my packing my shit and leaving without saying a word.

As for ambition or guidance... I don't know. I was sent to private school my whole life, had a lot of tutors, played 10 years of piano. Since I came back from Alberta, I've finished a Law degree and am nearing the end of my Philosophy one. I fully intend on doing a Master and a Doctorate afterwards (although I have no clue on what yet). It is entirely true that I've never been a competitive individual. Beating others was fun while I was in Law school, but otherwise I'm really more into cooperative boardgames than team sports.

And no, I don't smoke to avoid the vivid dreams. I smoke mostly because the effect, after long-term use, is very mild but still amusing. The vivid dreams would disappear after 2 weeks of withdrawals, so its not like the end of the world.

As for my environment : I live in a 7 1/2 in one of the most petite-bourgeoisie parts of Montréal. My roommates are an architect and a social worker specialised with autist kids. They do drugs perhaps twice a year, although they'll do harder stuff than I would.

Cannabis has a prevalence of 183.3 million users worldwide
Opioids (opiates and prescription opioids) of 35 million users.
Opiates has 17.7 million users.
Cocaine has 17.1 million users.
Amphetamines has 37 million users.
Ecstasy has 21.6 million users. — TimeLine

Thanks for your reply - I can see that safety issues are paramount in your thinking. However, in order to gain a complete picture, I think you need to realise that there are great benefits to be had from careful choice and use of mind altering substances, and that many people feel their lives are greatly enhanced by them. — Jake Tarragon

Note that Hallucinogens are not included in Timeline's list. MDMA (Ecstasy) is, and I think of it as a quasi-hallucinogen, which isn't addictive and isn't anywhere near as destructive as the other drugs on the list.

I have known many people whose lives have been enhanced by Hallucinogens and Ecstasy also. None of those people ever developed serious problems of abuse with those drugs. To throw all drugs into one category demonstrates simplistic thinking.

Mine was that my dad had just decided to make a hole in the wall with me, and I had had enough of semi-abusive helicopter parents by the time I had turned 18. That seemed conducive to my packing my shit and leaving without saying a word. — Akanthinos

Ok, but it surely sounds like you have had, financially and materially, quite a privileged upbringing:

I was sent to private school my whole life, had a lot of tutors, played 10 years of piano. Since I came back from Alberta, I've finished a Law degree and am nearing the end of my Philosophy one. — Akanthinos

Most people simply cannot afford the luxury to do a law degree and a philosophy one on top of it immediately after. And yet I would venture to guess that you have all this money for it from your family right? Are you working at the moment? Or how do you pay your bills?

I fully intend on doing a Master and a Doctorate afterwards (although I have no clue on what yet). — Akanthinos

Oh dear...

Most people simply cannot afford the luxury to do a law degree and a philosophy one on top of it immediately after. And yet I would venture to guess that you have all this money for it from your family right? Are you working at the moment? Or how do you pay your bills? — Agustino

You assume a lot. I have the distinct advantage to live in a country where a law degree from a prestigious university costs less than 4k a year. I work full-time, and but for a few intervals, have done so since I'm 20.

Oh dear... — Agustino

I've got the Master mostly down. It's the Doc I don't know what I'll be doing it on. I'm really starting to get annoyed at how conservative my Husserl teacher is, but we've been talking about him tutoring my Master for a couple of years now, so there's that in my future for sure.