There may remain a difference, I don't disagree with that, the question is what would make the difference. For example, is it something within the VR experience or something outside of it? If it's something within the VR experience then perfectly realistic VR experience would be indistinguishable from normal real-life experience in all regards.

Using transcranial magnetic stimulation, it's possible to elicit an experience. We might call it a hallucination.

But what if it were possible to create a visual experience of the device being used while it's being used to create the experience? Would we be "beholding" the device, or a mental image?

the question is what would make the difference — Magnus Anderson

But the difference is that one is virtual, the other, not.

Perhaps it can be put this way; questions of perception bear upon what one sees, not what one sees (or, in modality-neutral language: not what manifests, but what manifests).

Yes. The question is what makes that difference. How do we differentiate between the two? What is the logic behind this process of differentiation? When I ask you what makes the difference between an image that has a face in it and an image that does not how do you answer? Do you answer by saying that the difference is that one has a face in it and the other does not or do you answer by describing the step-by-step procedure that we use in order to determine whether any given image has a face in it or not?

While it may well look different to each of us, we do not each see a different tree. — Banno

No, I'm not saying we do. But the point is that the tree only appears to each individual, and it does so differently. And yet the tree is nonetheless identified as the tree. This identity however, is purely conceptual or logical; it cannot capture the living appearances the tree makes to each one of us. Put another way, the identity of the tree is discursive; and discourse is not life.

But the point is that the tree only appears to each individual... — Janus

No, it doesn't. It is seen by all the individuals.

↪creativesoul An experience of an external object that results from use of your sensory organs. — Marchesk

I'm experiencing pain when I stub my toe on a rock. Seems you want to say that I'm experiencing the rock.

The question is what makes that difference. — Magnus Anderson

Isn't it your hypothesising that makes the difference?

Can I stub my toe on a virtual rock?

But the point is that the tree only appears to each individual, and it does so differently. — Janus

Even the tree itself as it appears to one individual isn't a single object but a multiplicity of objects.

Even the tree itself as it appears to one individual isn't a single object but a multiplicity of objects — Magnus Anderson

That all depends upon how the person talks about it.

Can I stub my toe on a virtual rock? — creativesoul

On Star Trek you can, if you disable the Holodeck safety protocols.

I'm experiencing pain when I stub my toe on a rock. Seems you want to say that I'm experiencing the rock. — creativesoul

You're experiencing kicking the rock, which is painful.

Sure, it can be conceived as either a singularity or a multiplicity. As the tree we think of it as an identity; but it is also a sum of parts that are each identities in their own right.

What is complex, what is simple? Depends what you are doing.

Think I mentioned that earlier.

You're experiencing kicking the rock, which is painful. — Marchesk

I'm perceiving kicking the rock?

I'm perceiving kicking the rock? — creativesoul

Yes, and then the pain of a stubbed toe afterward. The nerves in your skin provide tactile perception.

No, it doesn't. It is seen by all the individuals. — Banno

How is being seen by all the individuals actually (as opposed to merely logically) different than being seen by each individual that sees it?

Say the tree is seen by ten individuals. Being seen by all ten is not some actuality which is over and above it being seen by each of the ten individuals. There is no extra collective or joint seeing of the tree, in other words.

I'm perceiving kicking the rock?
— creativesoul

Yes, and then the pain of a stubbed toe afterward. — Marchesk

Does my toe perceive itself kicking the rock?

Your toe doesn't perceive, but it is part of an organism that does. The nerves in your toe feed the tactile and pain signals to your central nervous system.

That's interesting...

My toe is most certainly a part of my physiological sensory perception. If I see with my eyes, why don't I feel with my toe?

I can feel the floor under my feet as we speak.

Feeling is not perceiving?

If I see with my eyes, why don't I feel with my toe? — creativesoul

You don't perceive with just your eyes, although we say you see with your eyes. Cut out your visual cortex, and there will be no visual perception.

So yeah, in ordinary language, you do feel with your toe. But your toe itself doesn't perceive anything.

How is being seen by all the individuals actually (as opposed to merely logically) different than being seen by each individual that sees it? — Janus

You said:

But the point is that the tree only appears to each individual... — Janus

(My emphasis)

Not sure what the "only" is doing there, unless you meant it to imply that the tree appears different for each individual - with which I agree. You seem to want to say that each individual sees a different tree - but that's wrong, ex hypothesi. Do you want to say that ten individuals look at the same tree, but that there is no tree? How's that?

The point is, your picture of what happens when ten people look at a tree does not hang together; it is malformed.

Feeling is not perceiving? — creativesoul

There is proprioception in addition to the five senses. Feeling the floor under you counts as perception.

I'm perceiving kicking the rock?

No you are experiencing it, how you deconstruct your experience assumes a different pov.

Perception seems to imply some sort of conscious recognition. You feel the floor beneath you feet more often than you perceive it.

What if I punch myself? Is that perception? How does it differ from kicking a rock? Am I beholding a mental construct of myself? Am I experiencing myself or a mental construct of myself?