• Philosophim
    3.5k
    This is a continuation of https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15250/if-existence-is-good-what-is-the-morality-of-life Once again, in participating here, you assume the validity of the previous conclusions. If you have an issue with any of them, please post in that specific forum where it is addressed.

    A summary of what has been concluded so far:

    1. If there is an objective morality, a foundation is "Existence must be good."
    2. To measure existence, it must be quantified. A quantified existence is an existent.
    3. Existence is quantified through the way it expresses itself. This can be by itself, or as an interaction with another existent.
    4. The way to measure existence is expressions over time.
    5. The possible expressions an existence can do in the next time set, is potential existence.
    6. Existence can evolve by interacting with another in such a way as to create potential and actual existence that could not exist on its own. Ex: Two atoms combine into a molecule.
    7. Chemical reactions are highly concentrated existents over time. Life is a a combination of self-sustaining chemical reactions over potentially infinite time.
    8. The principal of homeostasis is to find a balance of concentrated existence that does not burn itself out from excess, nor run out from lack. This is the goal of life as a whole.
    9. From this we obtain a hierarchy of morality where life creates more existence then non-life, except where the removal of non-life would disrupt the homeostasis of life.

    Now to continue!

    What is intelligent life?

    Intelligent life is a bit more difficult to assess, as there is often an innate human bias in its evaluation. We are the most intelligent species, therefore it is easy to set us as the bar. But, I will hazard an estimate using the morality of existence that's been established so far.

    Life at its most basis is a set of chemical interactions that seeks its eternal continuation. This requires a certain awareness or interaction with itself and the world to work. This goes beyond the combination of baking soda and vinegar, or the immediate interaction and reaction. Intelligent requires planning. Foresight. The idea that I can take baking soda and combine it with vinegar, but not do that now. It is the ability to understand how existents interact with each other, and plan for a future.

    Interestingly, this creates an entirely new set of existence that would not exist otherwise. Prediction. There is an entire world of existence within intelligent lives we call 'minds'. It is incredibly rare and difficult to build, but it exists. An unintelligent life can only leave a room through a door. An intelligent life can imagine a room, design its structure, and where they would put the door. Then they can make it happen if they so choose.

    Where does that put intelligent life in the hierarchy of existents?

    The ability of prediction is an explosion of existence. The evaluation of potential existence becomes existence which can be evaluated in the moment. Finally, a being is not buffeted about by the winds of what it encounters, but can actively evaluate a situation, and determine what action it should take. Thus intelligent life has the potential to be moral. It can evaluate potential outcomes, and determine which outcome generates the most existence. Thus intelligent life has the potential of the highest concentrated existence from moment to moment, and far into the future.

    Conclusion: Morality is contextual, but still has an underlying foundation which is immutable

    With this we have a tool to evaluate moral issues without subjectivity. Here are some examples.

    With this, the classic trolley problem is solved.

    1. A train is on a track to kill five people. You have the option to switch the track, but there is one person on the other track who will die instead. The capabilities or moral impetus of each individual is unknkown.
    There are no social ramifications or consequences for your actions. What do you do?

    Answer: You throw the switch every time. If the existential value of each individual is unknown, the only reasonable conclusion is to assume all are equivalent. Thus saving five people vs one person is the objectively correct choice each time.

    But what about my feelings? What about society?

    Feelings are irrelevant here. An objective morality allows us a rational decision. To claim it is wrong, a rational example of demonstrating why the other choice creates more existents must be applied. As for societies judgements, we are free of that in this situation.

    What about outcomes that are not certain?

    Lets take smoking for example. We'll pretend that smoking causes no harm to the body, but has a 70% chance of ending your life five years early. On the flip side, we'll also note that the only thing smoking does is make you happy.

    So, lets compare.

    a. Are there other things that can make you happy that don't have a chance of ending your life early? Yes. So being happy doesn't add anymore existence in of itself as you can do other things which add happiness.

    So by basic math, if you can do something that has a 0% chance of ending your life early, vs something that has a 70% chance of ending your life early, yet results in the same outcome of happiness, morally, you should not smoke.

    That seems rather simplistic

    Yes, because it is an introduction. But of course we can add more variables! That's the beauty of an objective morality. We can add as many details as we want until we reach a situation in which we have no more information. But of course as an introduction, we must start simple.

    But what about when we reach situations which force induction?

    What we must do is build principles that apply in most situations. So for example, lets say that 99% of the time, not murdering a person on the street is a good thing. If you encounter a new person and do not have the time or ability to evaluate whether its that 1% chance that murdering them would be a good thing, you can follow the principle that its probably not a good thing, and this is rational.

    Again, what about society?

    Society is another variable, and like the patterns before us, allows an evolution of existents into a greater set of existence then one lone intelligent life. I may continue another post evaluating the morality of societies, but we'll see after the response to this one if its needed.
  • Gregory of the Beard of Ockham
    48
    With this, the classic trolley problem is solved.

    1. A train is on a track to kill five people. You have the option to switch the track, but there is one person on the other track who will die instead. The capabilities or moral impetus of each individual is unkown.
    There are no social ramifications or consequences for your actions. What do you do?

    Answer: You throw the switch every time. If the existential value of each individual is unknown, the only reasonable conclusion is to assume all are equivalent. Thus saving five people vs one person is the objectively correct choice each time.
    Philosophim

    For me it is solved, but more complicated. What is my intention in throwing the switch? It must be to save the five, not to kill the one. Killing the one must be a foreseen, but not intended, consequence. If I'm intending to kill the one, then it is murder.

    I missed the previous discussion, so apologies if I'm saying something out of context. I read your nine-point summary and did not see anything I definitely disagreed with, though there were some points I did not understand. I definitely agree that existence is good.

    I'm surprised no one has followed up on this topic in two years.
  • Philosophim
    3.5k
    I missed the previous discussion, so apologies if I'm saying something out of context.Gregory of the Beard of Ockham

    Not a worry! That's the great thing about the forums, long time limits on replies. :)

    For me it is solved, but more complicated. What is my intention in throwing the switch? It must be to save the five, not to kill the one. Killing the one must be a foreseen, but not intended, consequence. If I'm intending to kill the one, then it is murder.Gregory of the Beard of Ockham

    It can be simplified slightly by separating two things. Intentions, and outcomes. Lets take a bank robbery for example.

    A person attempts to rob a bank for money. While holding up the teller, they don't realize that there was a bomb about to go off outside that would have killed lots of people leaving the bank. Ultimately, the outcome of their stopped robbery was that they saved lives, but their intention was still a harm.

    Intention is more about consistency under the law. While a bad intention can sometimes result in a good outcome, that is mostly accidental. Bad intentions acted upon often result in poor outcomes. So we don't gamble necessarily on outcomes and punish active intentions despite what those intentions bring.
  • Gregory of the Beard of Ockham
    48
    Sure, acts with bad intentions can accidentally have good outcomes. I guess we agree that they are still bad? Likewise, acts with good intentions can accidentally have bad outcomes.
  • Philosophim
    3.5k
    ↪Philosophim Sure, acts with bad intentions can accidentally have good outcomes. I guess we agree that they are still bad? Likewise, acts with good intentions can accidentally have bad outcomes.Gregory of the Beard of Ockham

    Correct, but this is often left to 'chance'. Lets say that I intend to throw a ball. 99% of the time, I will. 1% of the time I won't. If you intend poor outcomes, you will succeed more often in creating poor outcomes than when you are intending good outcomes. Thus the process of intention, which is an actionable approach, can be found positive or negative because we want to encourage trying for good things over negative things.
  • L'éléphant
    1.8k
    A person attempts to rob a bank for money. While holding up the teller, they don't realize that there was a bomb about to go off outside that would have killed lots of people leaving the bank. Ultimately, the outcome of their stopped robbery was that they saved lives, but their intention was still a harm.

    Intention is more about consistency under the law. While a bad intention can sometimes result in a good outcome, that is mostly accidental.
    Philosophim

    I disagree that the lives saved by the robbers don't count in evaluating morality. Pragmatism accepts that between two undesirable choices, the one that causes the least harm must be chosen. Even if it is only accidentally that they ended up saving lives. We must at least acknowledge that the consequence of their action has led to a better outcome. Remember that a lot of scientific discoveries that have been saving lives were accidental -- with no intention by the discoverer for a cure.

    I know it doesn't look rational to think that the robbers' action should be given credit. But a gratitude should, at least, do the job.
    In this case, we should set aside the primacy of intention and deal with the outcome.
  • Philosophim
    3.5k
    I disagree that the lives saved by the robbers don't count in evaluating morality.L'éléphant

    To be clear, I separated intention and outcomes. We consider both in moral evaluations. So while normally we do punish intentions, if the outcome ends up being good enough through sheer accident, we generally do not punish the individual as harshly or at all for that one incident. But we will not encourage the same intent again and warn them if they act in such a manner again, they will be dealt with next time.
  • L'éléphant
    1.8k
    But we will not encourage the same intent again and warn them if they act in such a manner again, they will be dealt with next time.Philosophim
    True. The whole thing is a fluke.
  • Gregory of the Beard of Ockham
    48
    Agreed, the unforeseen good consequences of a bad (badly intended) act may suggest mitigation of punishment or even a full pardon, but the act itself was still bad.
  • L'éléphant
    1.8k
    1. A train is on a track to kill five people. You have the option to switch the track, but there is one person on the other track who will die instead. The capabilities or moral impetus of each individual is unknkown.
    There are no social ramifications or consequences for your actions. What do you do?

    Answer: You throw the switch every time. If the existential value of each individual is unknown, the only reasonable conclusion is to assume all are equivalent. Thus saving five people vs one person is the objectively correct choice each time.
    Philosophim
    Train track revisited.

    I have answered this dilemma before. So, another look at it is good. I still answer, not to switch the track even if it means saving five people. Sacrifice of one life in order to save other lives is never, to me, a sound moral choice. The reason being that I would intentionally kill one person. So I am agreeing with .

    Killing some individuals in order to save a number of people is never a good moral foundation. The means doesn't justify the end. If the principle of killing one person to save multiple lives is followed, cruelty would not need to be scrutinized. We have real life examples of it through human sacrifice of children entombed alive in the mountain for the welfare of the village. Yes, one blunt force on the skull while the child was intoxicated should be recognized as cruel.
  • Philosophim
    3.5k
    I have answered this dilemma before. So, another look at it is good. I still answer, not to switch the track even if it means saving five people. Sacrifice of one life in order to save other lives is never, to me, a sound moral choice. The reason being that I would intentionally kill one person. So I am agreeing withL'éléphant

    Then what you are saying is having five people die and you feel better about is better than reducing the deaths to one person but you feel about about it? I see this as more of a feelings argument than moral calculation.

    Killing some individuals in order to save a number of people is never a good moral foundation.L'éléphant

    We have to be very careful on the exact context here. We have a very specific scenario here where people are going to die no matter what we do. Do we reduce it to one death, or keep it at five deaths? Its important that we do not extrapolate beyond that scenario. In a different scenario, killing someone may not be the moral option.

    Lets examine your different scenario, "Sacrifice one child to avoid a God's wrath." First of all, is there certainty and proof that this God and their wrath exist? Can anyone speak with this God and negotiate? If they can't speak with them, how do they know they want a sacrifice? One decision in one moral scenario does not translate 1 to 1 to another moral scenario.
  • L'éléphant
    1.8k
    Then what you are saying is having five people die and you feel better about is better than reducing the deaths to one person but you feel about about it? I see this as more of a feelings argument than moral calculation.Philosophim
    Not a feeling argument.
    But there is a moral actor -- me. I am part of the scenario. Why can't I decide?
    The corollary to it is, what if it was my child that I had to kill?
    What if my child was one of the five?
  • Philosophim
    3.5k
    Not a feeling argument.
    But there is a moral actor -- me. I am part of the scenario. Why can't I decide?
    L'éléphant

    I didn't say you couldn't decide. My question is whether your feelings are worth the lives of four other people.

    The corollary to it is, what if it was my child that I had to kill?
    What if my child was one of the five?
    L'éléphant

    Then this is a different scenario. The trolley problem is very specific. Its people you don't know. There is no implicit value or benefit to you in particular. For example, there is nothing stating, "The one person the track will give you a billion dollars if you save them." I think this is the major mistake of most moral arguments. They do not carry easily over from one context to another. I will be glad to visit those other contexts, but lets address this one first.
  • LuckyR
    735
    The main reason why folks have argued both sides of the Trolley Problem since it was invented, is precisely why it's ultimately unimportant bordering on meaningless. Because intelligent arguments can be made for either choice, that is it doesn't matter much, morally.
  • Philosophim
    3.5k
    Because intelligent arguments can be made for either choice, that is it doesn't matter much, morally.LuckyR

    The correct choice is saving the five if existence is good. The mistake is thinking that this very specific scenario caries over into another context. Moral instances can not be easily abstracted to other instances. Its like saying "Because 2+2=4, 2+3 = 6" Change any part of the example, and its no longer the same equation.

    The trolly problem is useful to put a simplified and very narrow question to eliminate other variables and focus on very small things. Human choice, whether you believe not pulling the switch is a choice, and the value of lives. Why its solved here is because 5 deaths vs 1 death is a simple abstract to solve. Your feelings vs the lives of 4 other people is irrelevant existence wise.
  • L'éléphant
    1.8k
    The correct choice is saving the five if existence is good.Philosophim

    1. If there is an objective morality, a foundation is "Existence must be good."Philosophim

    This needs further discussion. I don't think the existence of objective morality, warrants the conclusion that existence itself is good. Existence cannot be judged as good or bad.
  • LuckyR
    735
    The correct choice is saving the five if existence is good

    Is that so? If it's so obvious, why is it called the Trolley PROBLEM? Why is it even a thing?
  • Philosophim
    3.5k
    This needs further discussion. I don't think the existence of objective morality, warrants the conclusion that existence itself is goodL'éléphant

    This is a continuation of another post of mine where I prove that if an objective morality exists, existence must be good as a basis. Im on my phone and can't track it for a link, so take a look.
  • Philosophim
    3.5k
    Is that so?LuckyR

    Please read the OP.
  • AmadeusD
    4.3k
    Because there is an unexamined assumption that existence is not the basic good.
    If we interrogate that, we have to confront some other questions. My take on the trolley problem actually takes this into account by saying that existence is not intrinsically good, and neither is life. Therefore, no decision is better than a decision which will, on my say so, kill that person, by my choice.

    Not trying to argue that solution; simply saying that the trolley problem, as stated, very rarely gets people to discuss this aspect. It's just about responsibility for most.
  • Gregory of the Beard of Ockham
    48
    I still answer, not to switch the track even if it means saving five people. Sacrifice of one life in order to save other lives is never, to me, a sound moral choice. The reason being that I would intentionally kill one person. So I am agreeing with ↪Gregory of the Beard of Ockham.L'éléphant

    If you thought you were agreeing with me, I'm afraid you have misunderstood. Since what I have said was not sufficiently clear, I will elaborate. I am operating with the Principle of Double Effect (PDE). Let's name the potential victims on the first track A, B, C, D, E (for short, A-E), and the potential victim on the second track F.

    According to PDE, an act which has both good and bad effects is permissible provided that:
    1. The act itself is morally good or indifferent: it is not an evil kind of act.
    2. The bad effect is merely foreseen, not intended; it is permitted, not willed.
    3. The bad effect is not a means to achieve the good effect.
    4. The good effect must be a proportionally grave reason for permitting the bad effect.

    Now, I would throw the switch from track 1 to track 2. This satisfies the four conditions because:
    1. The action of throwing a railroad switch is morally indifferent (unlike, say, committing adultery or bearing false witness).
    2. I do not intend the death of F. If it were possible to save F as well as A-E I would certainly want to do so.
    3. The death of F is not the means of saving A-E. If the switch were thrown to track 2 and F somehow removed from danger, A-E would still be saved.
    4. The saving of five lives is a sufficiently grave reason for permitting the loss of one life. We have a net "save" of four lives.

    This is not a case of "intentionally killing one person." If we had to intentionally kill F to save A-E, for example by throwing his dead body onto the track to stop or slow down the trolley, that would violate condition 2 of PDE, and it would be impermissible.
  • L'éléphant
    1.8k
    According to PDE, an act which has both good and bad effects is permissible provided that:

    The act itself is morally good or indifferent: it is not an evil kind of act.
    The bad effect is merely foreseen, not intended; it is permitted, not willed.
    The bad effect is not a means to achieve the good effect.
    The good effect must be a proportionally grave reason for permitting the bad effect.
    Gregory of the Beard of Ockham

    This is a roundabout way of saying "the end justifies the means". If that's your idea, then you are correct, I misunderstood you. So, yes, I don't hold this principle.

    Now, I would throw the switch from track 1 to track 2. This satisfies the four conditions because:

    The action of throwing a railroad switch is morally indifferent (unlike, say, committing adultery or bearing false witness).
    I do not intend the death of F. If it were possible to save F as well as A-E I would certainly want to do so.
    The death of F is not the means of saving A-E. If the switch were thrown to track 2 and F somehow removed from danger, A-E would still be saved.
    The saving of five lives is a sufficiently grave reason for permitting the loss of one life. We have a net "save" of four lives.
    Gregory of the Beard of Ockham

    But I disagree with your analysis here. Anytime we act knowing that our action will result in something, that's intentional. Intentionality is about directional action. Yes, you do intend to switch the track and yes you do know what would happen.

    Sorry, but the death of F is a means of saving A-E. It is because the scenario makes sure that by switching the track F dies. If somehow you are adding a "chance" here of F surviving, then, you are essentially changing the rules.

    And finally, morality by numbers is grave for me -- killing one person is equally as grave because F was not destined here to die if we allowed the trolley to continue its path.
  • LuckyR
    735
    Exactly. Those are not unusual responses, hence why folks argue about the T Problem. Which is essentially my point.
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