boundless
PoeticUniverse
causation investigates the fundamental nature, structure, and existence of cause-and-effect relationships — Gnomon
Gnomon
Since this is a philosophical forum, I'm more interested in the the metaphysical way philosophers use the term "Energy" than the physical way scientists define it. And yet, the way both scientists and philosophers conceive of Energy changed dramatically in the 20th century : from a physical substance (phlogiston) to a mathematical statistic (probability)*1. The man-on-the-street probably finds the new notion confusing or ambiguous. But do you think making that Math vs Matter distinction is a case of "equivocation" or "prevarication"? :brow:↪Gnomon
The reason why I objected to your use of the physical concept of 'energy' in this discussion is because I believe that, by doing so, there is a danger of equivocation. While it might be true that scientists in the modern era developed the concept while inspired by something like the Aristotelian concept of 'potency', the way it is actually used in physics is different. — boundless
Do you object to the 21st century scientific consensus that invisible Energy is fundamental to the knowable universe*2? It's still the "stuff" of physical reality, but it's different from Democritus' Atomism. Even Dark Matter is assumed to be made of Energy in the sense of Einstein's equation : E = MC^2. That intangible "stuff" may seem to invalidate traditional Atomism/Materialism by replacing a substance with an essence*3. But, is that an "equivocation", or a philosophical distinction? :chin:*At least when they seem to present energy as the 'stuff' that in some sense 'makes up the universe'. — boundless
Gnomon
Well put! And I agree. Your fluent expression reminds me of Richard Feynman's counterintuitive notion that "light doesn't flow"*1. :smile:Causality is primary, not time. Time is our way of keeping track of causal order. Causality is enforced by light; it’s a network of allowed influences, not like a flowing river. Time is what massive, interacting systems construct because light is limited in its finite speed. — PoeticUniverse
Gnomon
Thanks for your replies to the "fundamentality of Causation" and the "ambiguity of Energy" questions. So, now what do you think about the "many degrees of reality" question?*1*2*3So, the notion that there are "many degrees of reality" sounded to me like the pseudo-scientific notion of multiple "Dimensions" in the world, some accessible to the physical senses, and others that are knowable only by the Third Eye of extra-sensory perception. — Gnomon
PoeticUniverse
PoeticUniverse
So, now what do you think about the "many degrees of reality" question? — Gnomon
boundless
Since this is a philosophical forum, I'm more interested in the the metaphysical way philosophers use the term "Energy" than the physical way scientists define it. And yet, the way both scientists and philosophers conceive of Energy changed dramatically in the 20th century : from a physical substance (phlogiston) to a mathematical statistic (probability)*1. The man-on-the-street probably finds the new notion confusing or ambiguous. But do you think making that Math vs Matter distinction is a case of "equivocation" or "prevarication"? :brow: — Gnomon
Do you object to the 21st century scientific consensus that invisible Energy is fundamental to the knowable universe*2? — Gnomon
Gnomon
Makes sense to me. But do you think that's what Wayfarer meant by "many degrees of Reality"? In my terminology, I would call that "many degrees of Ideality" or "infinite possibilities : one actuality". I got the --- possibly mistaken --- impression that, for Wayfarer, Reality is not an on/off (either/or) switch, but more like a multi-state "dimmer switch". :smile:Reality is not a dimmer switch on things. It’s a filter on possibilities.
Possibility vs actuality: The degrees live on the possibility side, not the actuality side. Once something is actual, it is fully real. — PoeticUniverse
That's an interesting angle on the OP. But in Federico Faggin's book Irreducible , he indicates that The One --- sometimes symbolized or reified as the universal quantum field --- is more interested in Seities (souls) than planets. Though he doesn't speculate on Seities beyond Earth. But, in principle, the possibilities are infinite. Hence, beyond my comprehension.To say that the brain is like a radio/tv tuner/receiver of all that goes on elsewhere seems a bit too much. Then there should have been planets like Earth everywhere if a universal consciousness were in charge. — PoeticUniverse
Gnomon
Yes. That's why I said, for the purposes of this thread, I'm more interested in the meta-physical*1 interpretations of Philosophy : as in Metaphysical Causation*2. :smile:I wouldn't use QM to argue for a particular interpretation of 'energy' as being a 'potential' in an Aristotelian sense. In probabilistic interpertations of QM, basically all physical quantities (at least in 'unobserved' states) can perhaps be framed as 'potentials', not just energy. — boundless
If causal Energy is not fundamental to physics, what is? Do you think atomic Matter is the basic "stuff" of Reality?Again, the 'consensus' merely says that most energy can't be found within the known physical systems. This doesn't imply that energy is the 'fundamental stuff'. Rather, than there are unknown physical systems/objects that 'store', for a lack of a better word, most of the energy. — boundless
boundless
Yes. That's why I said, for the purposes of this thread, I'm more interested in the meta-physical*1 interpretations of Philosophy : as in Metaphysical Causation*2 — Gnomon
If causal Energy is not fundamental to physics, what is? Do you think atomic Matter is the basic "stuff" of Reality? — Gnomon
What are those "unknown physical systems" that store*1 Energy? How do you know? :wink: — Gnomon
Gnomon
I'm giving Energy a philosophical meaning (function) instead of the scientific definition (quantity). Do you think philosophers (mind)) have no business making definitions for a different context than those of Science (matter)? If that's the case, you will only be confused by my posts, and my "links". :smile:I get that, but to me seeing a link between the physical concept of energy and the meaning you are giving to that word is like using the concept of force and the third principle to claim that "all actions cause an opposite consequences", which is wrong. — boundless
Physics says quite a lot about the fundamental role of Energy (note *2 above). But you seem to think the philosophical notion of Energy is a religious concept. What was Aristotle's religion? What was his "ulterior" motive in defining Energy as "Potentiality". :brow:If causal Energy is not fundamental to physics, what is? Do you think atomic Matter is the basic "stuff" of Reality? — Gnomon
I don't know and I'm not sure physics can say something about that. In fact, it seems to me, that it is precisely the belief that physical quantities have some hidden, ulterior metaphysical meaning that can be a problem for the progress of science. — boundless
It was not my idea to cast Energy in that fundamental role. It was that "weirdo" Albert Einstein. :wink:However, my point is that both mass and energy (like, really, all other physical quantities) are presented as properties of physical systems (either imputed by us or seen as belonging to them). Saying that 'energy' is fundamental, is like saying that lenght is more fundamental than objects that 'have lenght'. TBH, singling out 'energy' from all other properties like linear momentum, angular momentum etc and claiming that it - and just it - is somehow more fundamental than all others seem to me quite weird. — boundless
Gnomon
PoeticUniverse
Causation & Energy, as a transfer of Information from one entity to another. — Gnomon
180 Proof
:zip:IfcausalEnergy is not fundamentalto physics, what is? — Gnomon
:up: :up:However, my point is that both mass and energy ... are presented as properties of physical systems ... Saying that 'energy' is fundamental, is like saying that lenght is more fundamental than objects that 'have lenght'. — boundless
Gnomon
Wow! Do you have a doctorate in Quantum Physics? A lot of this is over my little pointy head, but I will timidly comment on a few of your Poetic/Scientific/Philosophical expressions of Energy/Causation/Creation.This already hints at time, since a distinction between before and after is unavoidable; there is always change. Mere change is not enough; causality provides the missing structure that links the changes. Light ensures happening is locally ordered. — PoeticUniverse
Constrained by what? Natural Laws?Causation is constrained information flow. — PoeticUniverse
Per Gregory Bateson : "There's a way of seeing information as "a difference that makes a difference," Difference A is a physical change ; difference B is a metaphysical meaning. Together, those differences are what I call intentional (allowed) Information (EnFormAction). Random change is Noise. No intention, no meaning.So information without causation is noise; . . . .
it is what differences are allowed to make a difference. — PoeticUniverse
In my thesis, Causation (events) = EnFormAction ---> Change/Difference ; each change is a bit of information. The new physical effect/thing is an "it"*1, in Wheeler's philosophical interpretation of causation. Cause is the question, Effect is the answer. Entropy makes events "irreversible".The deep order is: Causation → Information → Objects (“It”), not ‘it’ from ‘bit’. Only local, irreversible events generate bits. — PoeticUniverse
Thermodynamic “records” are written in terms of Cause & Effect. Energy is the cause, and Entropy is the effect. But between transitory C&E what persists is Information about Reality. Isaac Newton referred to the determinants (yes/no questions?) of fleeting reality as Laws : as-if decreed by God.Why laws look informational is that physics finds that entropy = information about microstates — PoeticUniverse
Logical "Correlations" are meaningful Information. And the physical "bits" we know via senses are defined by causal constraints, but soon vanish into Entropy, except for traces in Memory.The direction is that geometry emerges from correlations which are limited by causality; Note that causality is prior, so “It from bit” works only as ‘it’ from causally constrained ‘bit’. — PoeticUniverse
That's why I say : Causes are Laws that determine Reality. The "grammar" of causation is Syntax plus Laws, patterns of Information are the Semantics, and persistent*2 Memory is the trace of causation left in our metaphysical Minds.The clean synthesis is that causation determines which differences can persist, these persisting differences being information, and that the stable patterns of information are objects (“its”), Thus causation is the grammar; information is the sentence; objects are the story we tell afterward. — PoeticUniverse
We experience Change, wrought by Light-Energy, and remember (engrave in memory) only what's seems real to me.And calls that Memory “what’s real.” . . . .
And Time the keeping of what Light has written. — PoeticUniverse
PoeticUniverse
Constrained by what? Natural Laws? — Gnomon
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