Sam26
Sam26
Sam26
Sam26
Sam26
RussellA
Tool 1 is the simplest and, I think, the most important: “Look and see.” — Sam26
https://tapandesai.com/cargo-cult-thinking/
The Cargo Cult Thinking: Beware of Imitating Behaviors
During World War II, remote Pacific islanders watched in awe as foreign troops landed on their shores, bringing crates of food, medicine, and supplies, things the islanders had never seen before. The soldiers built airstrips, set up makeshift control towers, and went about their routines. Then, just as suddenly as they arrived, they vanished when the war ended, taking everything with them
But the islanders had a plan.
Believing that the airstrips had summoned the cargo, they built their own, meticulously crafting bamboo control towers and wooden headphones, hoping the planes would return. They mimicked the rituals of the soldiers, waiting for the magic to happen.
But the planes never came back.
Dawnstorm
RussellA
Tool 2 - the grammar check, and grammar here in Wittgenstein’s sense, not in the schoolbook sense. He doesn’t mean punctuation or sentence diagrams. He means what are the rules of use for an expression, what role does it play, what counts as a sensible move, and what counts as a category mistake. — Sam26
Hanover
However, there is a danger in Wittgenstein's practical approach which dismisses any attempt at a deeper philosophical understanding. It could be called “Cargo Cult Thinking”, where an observed behaviour is imitated rather than trying to make any attempt to understand the cause of such behaviour, difficult that might be. — RussellA
Hanover
The meaning isn’t a ghostly extra. — Sam26
Sam26
Thank you for your new Thread.
A thought that I have had for a while about Wittgenstein.
If a person said “I am in xyz” and did nothing, the word “xyz” would be meaningless to any observer of that person. In practice, the word only has a use within a language game if that word “xyz” refers to what they objectively do, not what they are subjectively thinking.
However, there is a danger in Wittgenstein's practical approach which dismisses any attempt at a deeper philosophical understanding. It could be called “Cargo Cult Thinking”, where an observed behaviour is imitated rather than trying to make any attempt to understand the cause of such behaviour, difficult that might be.
https://tapandesai.com/cargo-cult-thinking/
The Cargo Cult Thinking: Beware of Imitating Behaviors
During World War II, remote Pacific islanders watched in awe as foreign troops landed on their shores, bringing crates of food, medicine, and supplies, things the islanders had never seen before. The soldiers built airstrips, set up makeshift control towers, and went about their routines. Then, just as suddenly as they arrived, they vanished when the war ended, taking everything with them
But the islanders had a plan.
Believing that the airstrips had summoned the cargo, they built their own, meticulously crafting bamboo control towers and wooden headphones, hoping the planes would return. They mimicked the rituals of the soldiers, waiting for the magic to happen.
But the planes never came back.
Cargo Cult Thinking, because when a person says “I am in xyz”, for Wittgenstein, the word “xyz” refers to what they objectively do, it does not refer to the cause of why they said “I am in xyz” in the first place. — RussellA
Joshs
If a person said “I am in xyz” and did nothing, the word “xyz” would be meaningless to any observer of that person. In practice, the word only has a use within a language game if that word “xyz” refers to what they objectively do, not what they are subjectively thinking.
However, there is a danger in Wittgenstein's practical approach which dismisses any attempt at a deeper philosophical understanding. It could be called “Cargo Cult Thinking”, where an observed behaviour is imitated rather than trying to make any attempt to understand the cause of such behaviour, difficult that might — RussellA
Sam26
I'll say thanks here for the grammar section in particular. I've never quite understood what Wittgenstein meant by this - not when reading Wittgenstein (only read excerpts, so that's probably to blame), nor when I read others talking about it. This is probably the clearest explication I've ever come across, and it fits nicely into what else I know about Wittgenstein. So: thanks again.
I do have a question: How does the grammer check relate to the language game. My intuition is to say you need to identify the language game before you ran the grammar check - or differently put: isn't the grammar just the structure of the language game? (I'll admit I find it confusing that he chose the term grammar.) — Dawnstorm
Joshs
First, if someone says, “I am in xyz” and there’s no shared life around xyz, no training, no examples, no circumstances where we’d say, “this is when you use that word,” then yes, it’s meaningless. But that’s not because nothing inner matters. It’s because there are no criteria for the word’s — Sam26
Sam26
The meaning isn’t a ghostly extra.
— Sam26
This is the critical line and hundreds of posts have centered around this confusion. This comment is often read to mean "there is no ghostly extra," asserting a metaphysical claim about what might exist in one's mind. That then results in accusations that the internal state is denied and that we are all p-zombies speaking in the Chinese Room. The point is that meaning does not rely upon the ghostly extra, but that is not to suggest anyone is saying anything about what that ghostly extra might be or not be. The point is that it's ghostly, offers no explanatory value, and cannot be meaningfully discussed. It's beyond what philosophy can treat as explanatory for meaning. — Hanover
RussellA
One issue that I think comes up very often in these discussions is the thought that Wittgenstein is trying to deny the mental states. He's not. The question regarding them is whether they underwrite the meaning to the terms and whether they offer explanatory power in terms of what is meant. — Hanover
Sam26
RussellA
But Wittgenstein rejects both the idea of hidden causes and behaviorism.
..............................The intelligibility of “xyz” as a mood, a stance, a rule, or a commitment doesnt depend on a single episode of observable behavior, but on its place in a web of possible moves: what counts as evidence for being in xyz, what counts as pretending, what counts as withdrawing the claim, what follows from it, what licenses it. — Joshs
Sam26
If Wittgenstein rejects both hidden causes and behaviourism, what is his foundation for the Language Game? — RussellA
RussellA
causal stories and inner experiences can be real, but they aren’t what fix the meaning. — Sam26
sime
Game is Wittgenstein's classic case. Board games, card games, children’s games, sports, video games, solitary games, competitive games, cooperative games. Some have winners and losers, some don’t. Some require skill, some are luck heavy. Some are played for fun, some for money, some as ritual. There’s no one trait that every game has. But there’s also no confusion in ordinary life. We learn the concept by learning a family of activities and how the word is used in each context or case. — Sam26
Sam26
causal stories and inner experiences can be real, but they aren’t what fix the meaning.
— Sam26
If people had no inner feelings, then there would be no language games.
It follows that we have language games because we have inner feelings.
Therefore, if I did not have the inner feeling of xyz, there would be no language game of “I feel xyz”
Therefore, “I feel xyz” in the language game must be referring to my inner feeling of xyz.
The meaning of "I feel xyz" in the language game must be referring to my inner feeling of xyz. — RussellA
Ludwig V
I'm not at all sure that this tool is the simplest, but I agree that it is probably the most important. It seems simple, because it suggests that all we have to do is to sit back and the truth will reveal itself. But Wittgenstein also talks about the mental cramp that results when you go over the same points over and over again, thinking that you are testing an argument for flaws. But you may just be practicing a kind of self-hypnosis that prevents you from seeing properly. You need to look around you, at the context of your thought; you need to look at it from a variety of perspectives; above all, perhaps you need to avoid simplified (purified, ideal) concepts that seem to give clarity and certainty, but only do so because they are remote from the rough and tumble of actual life.Tool 1 is the simplest and, I think, the most important: “Look and see.” — Sam26
Yes, that's what he says. But this is a case where grammar (standard sense) presents a format that makes it hard to see the grammatical (W's sense) of the two forms. It makes it very hard to take on board the difference between first and third person uses. The two pronouns often herald different use patterns, but the point is seldom noticed.“I’m in pain” in the first person present usually functions as an avowal or expression, not as a report based on evidence, whereas “he’s in pain” is where checking and criteria show up more clearly. — Sam26
"Inner feelings" are part of the games here. We learn how to play them. Suppression of behaviours is a necessary part of social life - even non-language using animals practice it.And yes if there were no inner life at all, language itself would be impossible. — Sam26
Sam26
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