• ENOAH
    1k
    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, might be problematic as a universal moral imperative. If taken literally and subjectively, which I think they should if the rule is to have its full effect,* then with a liberal interpretation of language, the imperative might conflict with Law.

    For example, if I, personally, were a rapist or sadistic murderer--remember, I am approaching this from the deep perspective of my present self, not that hypothetical, I, who is the rapist--I would want someone to kill me. Even if not because I am virtuous, but to put me out of my misery. So should I kill rapists and murderers, put them out of their misery?

    Or, again, it is the perspective of my present self, if I was absurdly wealthy, I'd want people, even strangers to take my money, if not to be compassionate, then to help ease the dissonance I'd feel from the absurdity. I have enough wealth say to pass on for generations of comfort. So does that mean I should take the money of a ridiculously wealthy billionaire, help ease the dissonance from the absurdity of it?


    * why not metaphorically is probably obvious. Why not objectively is because (Although the real historical first speaker is lost to us) it seems the "intent" of the rule is to have us act like a human, and take a step and dig deep into our own needs and fears when we are faced with a moral dilemma.
  • T Clark
    16.1k
    For example, if I, personally, were a rapist or sadistic murderer--remember, I am approaching this from the deep perspective of my present self, not that hypothetical, I, who is the rapist--I would want someone to kill me.ENOAH

    Sorry, this is silly. Treating someone in the manner you’d like to be treated yourself means to treat them with respect and compassion in the same way any normal person would like to be treated.

    Rigid over-literalness is one of the things that gives philosophy it’s deserved bad reputation.
  • Tom Storm
    10.8k
    Yes, that’s the response I have often given to this common objection.
  • ENOAH
    1k
    ,

    Sorry, this is sillyT Clark

    No, Im sorry. I didn't even realize it was a common objection and was just putting it out there.

    In retrospect....
  • LuckyR
    720
    The Golden rule was supplanted by the Platinum rule awhile back for just this sort of "reasoning", namely, do unto other as they would have would have done to themselves.
  • Tom Storm
    10.8k
    No, Im sorry. I didn't even realize it was a common objection and was just putting it out there.ENOAH

    No need to be sorry, some clever people have put forward this argument over the years. And it shows up on this site every now and then.

    Some still accept it has value.

    I've usually held that the Golden Rule isn’t about everyone liking the same things; it’s about considering the other person’s preferences and needs. It asks us to use empathy and respect for other's perspectives and preferences, rather than imposing your own tastes.

    While I'm in agreement, I’m not sure it’s a principle I follow. For me, morality doesn’t require codifications or prescriptive rules like this.
  • Alexander Hine
    95
    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, might be problematic as a universal moral imperative.ENOAH

    I mean as a maxim it has quite a lot of ill defined scope for what actions you may actually do unto others.

    I ask if there's a fundamental axis of meaning from the original text, and culture and historical context, that this maxim is lifted?
  • T Clark
    16.1k
    For me, morality doesn’t require codifications or prescriptive rules like this.Tom Storm

    I agree, but then “listen to your heart” isn’t really what I would call a codification.
  • ENOAH
    1k
    I ask if there's a fundamental axis of meaning from the original text, and culture and historical context, that this maxim is lifted?Alexander Hine

    It appears to have spanned cultures and time periods, and I think it's safe to say its meaning can be intuitively understood.

    That's why my assessment offends its "intent." I think I am correct that it requires a subjective interpretation. Where I crossed the bounds was by not doing that, and giving it the interpretation of a sophist.
  • Paine
    3.2k

    Perhaps the version by Hillel is more universal: "Do not do to others what you would not have done to yourself."

    I suppose it does not rule out forms of self-destruction but that sort of thing is covered in the first Psalm by "the way of the wicked peters out."
  • ENOAH
    1k
    Agreed. While ancient history is a tough nut to crack, it seems a deliberate stretch to deny that Jesus was inspired by Hillel.


    the way of the wicked peters out.Paine

    I think that's an excellent observation. Maybe I'm taking liberty with your purpose, but it demonstrates how morality may be conditioned by functionality. Wicked choices ultimately prove unfrjitful or unfullfilling. Therefore, we can "survive" morally on only the golden rule.
  • AmadeusD
    4.1k
    Nothing here solves the problem. "Do unto others" is unworkable. Not everyone agrees with other's take on that. T Clark is being far, far too simplistic.
  • Questioner
    486
    The OP presents as a severe case of overthinking.

    Most people understand the Golden Rule means to treat others well, and fairly.

    It presumes that most people want to be treated well, and fairly.

    "Treat others as you would want to be treated."
  • T Clark
    16.1k
    Nothing here solves the problem. "Do unto others" is unworkable. Not everyone agrees with other's take on that. T Clark is being far, far too simplistic.AmadeusD

    Oh, afraid to tag me. Afraid I will bring my massive intellect to bear. Slowly I turn, step-by-step, inch by inch. Niagara Falls!!
  • AmadeusD
    4.1k
    This misses the OPs point. That is amorphous and unworkable as between value systems. Even within value systems, tolerance levels will have different responses coming to the same claims.

    LOL. Let's say yes. Response to Questioner is probably apt too.
  • Tom Storm
    10.8k
    Most people understand the Golden Rule means to treat others well, and fairly.

    It presumes that most people want to be treated well, and fairly.

    "Treat others as you would want to be treated."
    Questioner

    I think that’s the right point. The reality, however, is that ethics is complex, and the Golden Rule is a simplification or, perhaps a heuristic.

    I do know that almost all people, most of the time, do not want to be lied to, assaulted, robbed, or killed, and want to make choices and be free to go about their daily lives. The Golden Rule can readily be understood as representing this perspective.
  • AmadeusD
    4.1k
    The problem with this approach is that it relies on those elements being caught in the phrase. Any which are not, escape us. So it's either a Bibllcal heuristic, applying only to those apparently inarguable wrongs, or it's not particularly useful because too many differ on how they want to be treated.
  • Tom Storm
    10.8k
    Say some more, I’m not sure I follow. But if you’re saying that the GR is culturally located, then that’s probably true. Although I suspect there are versions of this that cross cultures and have a similar deflationary expression. Didn’t Buddha say something like, "Don’t be a cunt"? :wink:
  • Astorre
    413
    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, might be problematic as a universal moral imperativeENOAH

    This imperative begins with the Kantian maxim: act so that it may become universal law. This approach to morality has both its advantages and its limitations. It was developed during the first attempts to justify ethics without God. In my opinion, this tool is useful up to a certain point: precisely up to the moment when a person asks the world, "Why did I act well, while everyone around me acts badly, and why do they live better than me, while I live worse?"

    Such a question produces even more sincere villains than any (universally unpopular) religion.

    In my subjective opinion, there is no ultimate justification for ethics apart from God. Ethics cannot be scientifically substantiated. We have something else besides cause and effect; we are not biorobots. This is not religious propaganda, but a pointer to the fact that any moral imperative appears speculative upon closer examination.

    Kant himself, in his "Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals," criticized the Golden Rule, considering it too trivial. He wrote that it cannot be a universal law. For example, a criminal in court might say to the judge, "If you don't want to be sent to prison, then don't send me either."
  • Alexander Hine
    95
    Perhaps the version by Hillel is more universal: "Do not do to others what you would not have done to yourself."Paine

    Hillel, did not foresee those whose eternal misery
    was perpetual self sabotage.
  • AmadeusD
    4.1k
    Not exactly that the rule is culturally located, but its expression seems culturally bound at least.
    A good, solid Catholic queer, for instance, would want to be put through conversion therapy so as to avoid what they determine is the result of being gay: Hell. In Islam, its (this is definitely cartoonish, i'm just making a point) transition surgeries. In the liberal west, its to be left alone to live one's life.
  • Tom Storm
    10.8k
    Sure, that’s why I think of it as a heuristic, with limitations. And let’s face it: any little maxim that tries to universalise is probably doomed, if only by its blandness.
  • AmadeusD
    4.1k
    Hahaha, definitely agree there - but that is why the Golden Rule has never seemed practically coherent to me. It induces one to violate other's wishes, on it's face.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.