Im saying I don’t care. I do not recognize/accept your exclusion of published material as separate from free speech. Free speech isnt about how many people are reached. I make no distinction between public or private free speech on this matter.

Well ideally I would agree with you here. But there are differences in the effects of the speech on the public. So there is a difference. Also, I am a cartoonist in my spare time, I know there are no-go areas, even if I am only disseminating them to close friends, or family. But I don’t feel my freedom of speech to be restricted. I know there are taboo words, or opinions and there always have been. There is no absolute free speech within a society. Also within all the people I know, I haven’t seen any evidence of anyone’s free speech being restricted (other than in the case of long established taboo areas) and no one has ever told me, their free speech is being restricted.

As Ive said, incitement and libel. The “spectrum of material” has to be directly and clearly one of those otherwise my stance is it should not be restricted.
Certainly not jokes and certainly not opinion, whatever they may be.

The use of explicit material, such as revenge porn, grooming of minors and online fraud which also interest the police.

There is also gaslighting, manipulation of the Overton window and the manipulation of elections. The corruption of politics. Which can occur. Areas which are of no interest to the police, at this time.

Going back to the cartoons, there is a famous cartoonist I follow on X, who inadvertently included an anti-Semitic trope in a cartoon a couple of years ago. He was chastised in the media, had to give serious apologies and nearly lost his job for a national newspaper. And yet, nothing illegal was done and the police would not have any interest in it. I can give many more examples like this. None of them cases where censorship was enacted by the authorities. But where there is often some kind of chastisement by society. As there has been in one form or another throughout history.

So I’m still not seeing these new restrictions of the freedom of speech. Care to give an example?

Just repetition at this point.

Thanks for the comments. I do agree with what you say about free speech on social media. As it’s a new thing, and society and the authorities are still sorting out how they will react and use it. I do see it as somewhere between private and published. A grey area perhaps.

As Dingo didn't address this I'll have a go - I think the issue here is that social opinion is more effective censoring people than the law is. I return to Mill on this:

From Chapter 1:
"Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself."

From Chapter 4:

"The likings and dislikings of society, or of some powerful portion of it, are thus the main thing which has practically determined the rules laid down for general observance, under the penalties of law or opinion. And in general, those who have been in advance of society in thought and feeling have left this condition of things unassailed in principle, however they may have come into conflict with it in some of its details... In our age, from the highest class of society down to the lowest, everyone lives as under the eye of a hostile and dreaded censorship. Not only in what concerns others, but in what concerns only themselves, the individual, or the family, do not ask themselves—what do I prefer? or, what would suit my character and disposition? but—what is suitable to my position? what is usually done by persons of my station and pecuniary circumstances?

So its right to make a point about censorship, in the modern sense, being somewhat rare (although, I imagine many cases are unjustified beyond discomfort grounds anyway) but I think the above is illustrative of what's really wrong.
People shouldn't be interfering with other's beliefs in these ways, and we have literal roaming gangs of enforcers of political opinions, whether Islamic or Democratic (I simply don't know of any on the right at this time - if i'm ignorant, i'm ignorant).

The inarguable effect of social opinion precluding women from dobbing in their abusers is a prime example we may not want to lose sight of in these discussions.
The epistemic injustice meted out in yesteryear appears to have sort of turned on it's head, rather than diminished appreciably. Maybe this is just the nature of humans in large groups.

I think the issue here is that social opinion is more effective

Yes, I think this is getting to the nub of it. The phenomena of the majority of the population addicted to social media, where they get their dissemination of current affairs, rather than watching BBC news, or other reputable news sources. Has resulted in a kind of Wild West of opinion, truth and world view. Where people are siloed into separate groups with very different opinions and beliefs. Where they can become indoctrinated with a particular position, or showered with self affirming content, drowning or over powering any personal ideological, or moral compass.

I think the authorities are struggling to adapt to this and politics is in turmoil because of the way it can be manipulated.

People shouldn't be interfering with other's beliefs in these ways, and we have literal roaming gangs of enforcers of political opinions, whether Islamic or Democratic (I simply don't know of any on the right at this time - if i'm ignorant, i'm ignorant).

Yes, there is some of this going on in the U.K. There are two main groups at the moment. The Islamic, anti-Jewish crowd and the far right anti-immigration crowd. (There are a handful of smaller groups, but they don’t really cut through like the main two) The Islamic crowd has been stimulated into action due to the genocide going on in Palestine and the fact that Western governments seem to be endorsing it and supplying the offender with weapons. The far right group has been mobilised by Nigel Farage over the issue of illegal immigration, which has amalgamated with the traditional right wing groups such as the BNP and the Tommy Robinson crowd.

However, I don’t see any censorship going on here. Rather a public order issue due to large and regular protests and marches. Along with some extremely violent terrorist attacks, from both sides. The tabloid media has been using this to stir up a range of angry opinions including on immigration and the idea of free speech being under attack and two tier policing. Both which may be happening in a very small number of notable cases, which are blown up into national issues by wall to wall coverage in the media.

I think the authorities are struggling to adapt to this and politics is in turmoil because of the way it can be manipulated. — Punshhh

Definitely - I think its partially baked into how information travels though, right. Unless you're there, in the moment, people are going to draw different conclusions to any kind of reportage - apparently, even video evidence (I can restrict, to keep us relatively neutral, this, to condemning anyone saying Alex Pretti was in any way responsible for his own shooting. That's insane).

The Islamic crowd has been stimulated into action due to the genocide going on in Palestine and the fact that Western governments seem to be endorsing it and supplying the offender with weapons. The far right group has been mobilised by Nigel Farage over the issue of illegal immigration, which has amalgamated with the traditional right wing groups such as the BNP and the Tommy Robinson crowd. — Punshhh

Unfortunately, I think this formulation is probably evidence of the type of issues we're talking about (but obviously, I would - we have different views haha so I'm also doing it - to be sure). I'm not talking about protest groups - but roaming enforcers of Sharia in that case (and this well before Oct 7), and in the other, roaming groups of unhinged leftists assaulting and harassing random passersby(unfortunately, I have only instagram videos for this. If you'd like those links, I'll DM you) to agree to certain tenents like "fuck ICE" or whatever (this is restricted to current milieu, but it happens across many cultural 'events' as such in the last 20 years or so - most notably COVID - again, just to clarify, I am unaware of any groups on the right doing this sort of thing. Protesting, sure, but not this kind of genuinely fascist type of behaviour and that will speak to what's been available to me, If I have missed it).

That said, I'm not totally dismissing that formulation about the protest groups - but i think you're being charitable to one, and uncharitable to the other. As, likely, i would come across if I had carried out the same exercise. Just goes to the bolded above, I think. There is also, though, hte issue of people being genuinely uninterested or maybe unwilling to look at contrary evidence. For example, my position on the ICE/anti-ICE thing is that I see absolutely insanity on both ends of the spectrum: Some of the responses to Pretti's obvious murder have been absolutely baffling. But in the same vein, there are people defending all-out assault on ICE agents and military-style organizing of essentially militia groups to disrupt Federal law enforcement, and harass/assault random members of hte public.

Something prior to either of these positions need be the stopping point, or we can't talk to each other.

If we understood each other's goals to be so totally different as to warrant desisting from conversation, that would be bizarre but at least mutual. Currently, there's no mutuality even of the facts admitted. And yeah, I understand its easy to say "yes, one side is allergic to facts" but that would be to betray the issue, imo.

but roaming enforcers of Sharia in that case (and this well before Oct 7), and in the other, roaming groups of unhinged leftists assaulting and harassing random passersby(unfortunately, I have only instagram videos for this.

These are rare extremist lone wolf, or small group actions. If we’re talking about this kind of extremism. It has been on the rise since the allied attack on Afghanistan in 2002, but really got going after the second gulf war and the rise of Isis. There has been quite a lot of activity around this, but when it comes to day to day life for the ordinary person it is an extremely rare event and doesn’t affect their lives and there are no no-go areas as suggested by Trump. Also the anti terrorism police are highly effective at monitoring and foiling these plots. I think over a 95% success rate (I don’t have the figures in front of me at the moment).
Regarding “unhinged leftists”, there is no such thing, it’s possible there are a handful in a population of 65 million, but it really doesn’t exist (Unless you are referring to climate protesters).

Regarding extreme right wing violence, there is a fare amount, it just doesn’t make the news so much these days. Remember a member of parliament (Joe Cox) was murdered by them in 2016.

Currently, there's no mutuality even of the facts admitted.

Yes, I know, it’s a highly charged issue.

are no no-go areas as suggested by Trump — Punshhh

The problem with this is that I've seen several first-hand videos (i.e the person is in the situation themselves while filming, not following up some other person's claim) of Islamic groups literally roaming streets and accosting people for their garb, what they're eating, how their women are presented and behaving etc.. across the UK (so, no-go might be a bit far, but these videos generally result in criminal assaults from the groups trying to enforce Sharia). Of course you wont get some official statement confirming this - they, self-admittedly - ignored at least two long-term rape gangs in the UK for risk of "sounding racist". It cannot be taken at face value - but then, I can't use the videos i've seen as evidence of some widespread issue.
My point is that we need to be able to actually hear each on these instead of just making blanket claims like "there are no.." or "All x are..." etc.. I'm not someone who thinks "Immigrants are taking our jobs". But I do tend to see videos and take them for what they actually are, in the video, as I'm watching it. This cuts both ways. I also see plenty of horrific behaviour on the part of so-called "progressive" thinkers and protestors that are criminal, immoral and unacceptable. I don't then paint all progressive protesters are jobless louts.

Regarding “unhinged leftists”, there is no such thing, it’s possible there are a handful in a population of 65 million, but it really doesn’t exist (Unless you are referring to climate protesters). — Punshhh

We live in different worlds and I do not think you're adequately paying attention to the neutral point i'm making: You have no seen evidence to convince you of this. That is fine. I have slews of evidence of unhinged leftists carrying out assaults, property damage and behaviours that genuinely appear to be mental illness let loose. If you want to see it, I can give it to you.

If you are unwilling, that would confirm the hypothesis I've put forward:

There is also, though, hte issue of people being genuinely uninterested or maybe unwilling to look at contrary evidence — AmadeusD

Regarding extreme right wing violence, there is a fare amount, it just doesn’t make the news so much these days. Remember a member of parliament (Joe Cox) was murdered by them in 2016. — Punshhh

I would be more than happy to see the evidence for this. I currently am not aware of anything similar to what I'm talking about.

Regarding Joe Cox, an Islamic Extremist killed David Ames much more recently. It doesn't really matter to the point. We're not arguing facts here, we're talking about how people are so intensely unwillingly to see examples of their side being assholes.

The problem with this is that I've seen several first-hand videos (i.e the person is in the situation themselves while filming, not following up some other person's claim) of Islamic groups literally roaming streets and accosting people for their garb, what they're eating, how their women are presented and behaving etc.. across the UK

The problem with this is that it is difficult to determine what is going on in videos, or what that is saying about a community. There are a lot of videos of dubious origin circulating on social media and I mean a lot. I follow accounts on X where such videos are posted continuously day and night. Backed up by armies of followers with a political disposition to the right. Insisting all sorts of things. Usually twisting truths and spreading disinformation, hate and prejudice. Also a lot of these people are making a living posting content which their followers want to see. Giving them an incentive to continue and grow their base. So I don’t see any point going down the route of viewing this material and coming to views or opinions about real places and communities.
I follow current affairs closely in the U.K. and have a wide range of sources through which what you describe would show up and I’m not seeing it. There are always some extreme, or unusual events going on somewhere in a large and diverse population and when something that fits the bill becomes known by the above crowd, it is picked up on a broadcast far and wide on their platforms. And before you know it Farage is talking about it on the BBC, unchallenged.

Now when I look to the left of the political spectrum, the groups are far fewer in number and are usually bickering on about how Jeremy Corbyn was smeared by the establishment. Or fighting amongst themselves.

I have slews of evidence of unhinged leftists carrying out assaults, property damage and behaviours that genuinely appear to be mental illness let loose. If you want to see it, I can give it to you.

Can you define an unhinged leftist and describe the sort of behaviour you’re describing. Or provide a link (I don’t want it on DM, it needs to be here, this is what the thread is about).

We're not arguing facts here, we're talking about how people are so intensely unwillingly to see examples of their side being assholes.

I’m not seeing a two sides situation here. Are you assuming I’m on the left side? Or that there is a left right thing going on in the community?