• Astorre
    373
    I am working on a functional methodology under the general title “Architecture of the Break.” Within it, I have set myself the task of examining and systematically arranging—along a scale of weights—“human representations of reality,” which, in the framework of my approach, I refer to collectively as “ideas.”

    A key part of my approach is a functional description of the methods for weighting “ideas” (including the creation of a mathematical model). This allows one to quickly and easily determine—using this toolkit—the level of significance, accuracy, productivity, and universality of any given “idea.”

    Why this matters to me: everything I had encountered before was either too complicated or too entrenched within a specific paradigm of truth (political or ideological). The approaches I studied did not meet the criterion of universality, because within them the paradigms in which they were created are treated as ideal, while everything else is considered fake. I did not like this, because it contaminates the lenses through which I am trying to achieve “clarity of understanding.”
    My approach also allows one to work with pure speculations and even make certain predictions regarding the fate of a speculation—specifically, whether it can grow into a level of necessary truth. But that is for later; for now I offer the core of my system for discussion. (I could easily add two more pages of justification, but this seems to be a different format.)

    The core of my approach is a system for ranking any “idea” by its weight across three criteria:

    1. Universality — Scope of Applicability
    A measure of how broadly a given idea X can functionally regulate different domains.
    Universality prevents “Niche Blindness” (when an idea applies only within a narrow area while ignoring others).

    2. Accuracy — Verifiability and Predictive Power
    A measure of how precisely idea X corresponds to testable consequences (both empirical and deductive).
    Accuracy allows us to diagnose conflict at the lowest level. If an idea we rely on is inaccurate, it cannot serve as a foundation for rational action.

    3. Productivity — Generative Power
    The ability of idea X, once adopted as a law, to generate new, logically necessary, nontrivial consequences that could not have been derived from prior experience.

    The proposed hierarchical model looks as follows:

    Level 1. Axioms (Foundation of Being)

    Weight: Highest
    Determined by: Maximum Universality
    Essence: Ideas without which thought and the perception of causality are logically impossible (laws of logic, the existence of time and space). Their Accuracy is not discussed (though sometimes contested), and their Productivity is continuous—they constantly generate the very possibility of thought.
    Ontological Status: Necessity

    Level 2. Deductive Constructions (Constituting Principles)

    Weight: High
    Determined by: High Productivity
    Essence: Ideas adopted as laws that generate new, necessary consequences (for example, mathematical theorems or a nation’s Constitution). Their strength lies in asserting a new order and being functionally necessary for the operation of a system.
    Ontological Status: Functional Necessity

    Level 3. Empirics (Experience and Facts)

    Weight: Medium
    Determined by: Maximum Accuracy and Low Universality
    Essence: Ideas that have been validated by past experience and can be verified. Their weakness is that they describe only what has already happened (low Productivity) and apply only to specific conditions (low Universality).
    Ontological Status: Demonstrated Contingency

    Level 4. Models and Interpretations (Lenses)

    Weight: Below Medium
    Determined by: A combination of Universality and Accuracy
    Essence: Philosophical and worldview systems. They are not facts (low Accuracy), but they offer a universal way of organizing facts. Their weight depends on how successfully they systematize incoming information.
    Ontological Status: Methodological Optionality

    Level 5. Speculations (Noise and Possibility)

    Weight: Low
    Determined by: The absence of all three criteria
    Essence: Unverified hypotheses, fantasies, personal desires. They are inaccurate, non-universal, and lack proven productivity. Yet precisely here lies the seed of any future Deductive Construction, as these ideas are free from the burden of past experience (Empirics).
    Ontological Status: Pure Possibility

    I will not elaborate here on the mathematical model for distributing weights. Instead, I will analyze several “ideas” using this method:

    1. “Theory of Crystalline Humans”

    The fundamental nature of human consciousness and emotions is determined by crystalline structures in the brain that resonate with Earth’s energy fields.

    Analysis:

    Universality: Low. Cannot regulate physics, economics, law, etc.
    Accuracy: Zero. Cannot be subjected to empirical observation or deductive verification (no scientific implications). At least at the current moment.
    Productivity: Zero. Generates no new necessary laws or working technologies.
    Conclusion: Speculation (Level 5)

    2. “Increasing Centrifugal Force by 10% Doubles Bearing Wear”

    Analysis:
    Universality: Low. Applies only to this specific system of bearings and centrifugal force; cannot regulate, say, family relations.
    Accuracy: Maximum. Highly verifiable.
    Productivity: Low. Does not generate new fundamental laws; it describes a consequence of existing physical laws.
    Conclusion: Fact (Level 3)

    3. “Natural Rights of Man”

    Universality: High. The idea was intended to regulate politics, law, economics (property rights), and ethics simultaneously.
    Accuracy: Zero (in fact). It contradicted the empirical reality at the time of its emergence.
    Productivity: Maximum. It generated entirely new, necessary consequences: separation of powers, democracy, market economy. It created a whole class of new solutions.
    Conclusion: Constituting Principle (Level 2)

    It is worth expanding on this. For a contemporary Westerner, this idea appears self-evident, natural, and universally correct. However, at the time of its creation, it was not so. Its architects (Locke, Rousseau, the Founding Fathers) performed an Act of Will, translating it into a Constitution, thereby forcing reality to conform to it. This is a paradigmatic example of a successful Architectural Act.

    In this text, I will also not describe the mechanics of an “Idea” rising from Level 5 (speculation) to Level 2 (deductive construction).

    I ask participants to evaluate and provide recommendations on this model. Critical remarks are welcome.

    (P.S. I understand that the idea of “Natural Human Rights” may, for many readers, occupy the same role as “sunlight”—without which the world collapses. If that is the case for you, please do not spend time commenting. I fully acknowledge, respect, and accept your position.)
  • frank
    18.6k

    I like the idea of weight because weight is a result of gravity. Heavy (or massive) ideas bring other ideas into orbit around themselves.

    An example is the idea of home. It probably came into existence with agriculture because farmers have to stay in one place. They can't follow herds. they have to wait through the summer for crops to grow and they can't just tote around the harvest. They have to stay and protect it from robbers.

    There's an ancient artifact that is believed to be an early map, with the most heavily occupied area in the center. Nomads wouldn't have a map like that because for them the center of the map would always be changing.

    So all sorts of things begin to orbit that idea of home.
  • Astorre
    373


    This is truly a high-quality level of rhetorical mastery.

    The nomadic idea of ​​"home" is tied not to the land, but to everyday life, loved ones, and life itself. The idea of ​​"home on the land" enabled the development of many things related to establishing a life in one place, and, as you noted, primarily agriculture. However, the idea of ​​"home in the mind" (as among nomads) enabled the development of speed of movement and rapid expansion and contraction.

    In the history of the world, it was nomads who managed to build the largest (in terms of size) states, but it was sedentary people who built the most stable states.

    Yes, the settled people did invent a map with a center. The nomads simply made sure that this center was located where their headquarters were located at that moment.

    What else? I would note that nomads are best adapted to the unexpected (famine, cold, catastrophes) – the so-called "black swan." Sedentary people, on the other hand, learned to overcome difficulties based on the principle of "nowhere to run."

    History always tells us that a problem can have several solutions, and the model I propose allows us to consider their pros and cons.
  • frank
    18.6k
    What else? I would note that nomads are best adapted to the unexpected (famine, cold, catastrophes) – the so-called "black swan." Sedentary people, on the other hand, learned to overcome difficulties based on the principle of "nowhere to run."Astorre

    :up: Through European history those two sides revolve around one another since the ideological ancestors of the bourgeoisie were traveling merchants who paid rent to noble castle owners to camp by their walls in the winter. And the nobles themselves were descendants of semi nomadic warlords. The rule seemed to be that when you take over society, you settle down.

    History always tells us that a problem can have several solutions, and the model I propose allows us to consider their pros and cons.Astorre

    :up:
  • Zebeden
    13


    I made a table of your system. I can’t upload a picture, so I drew a simplified one using my keyboard:
    |-----------------|------------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------|
    |-----------------|.........1..........|.....2.......|.....3......|.....4......|.....5......|
    |-----------------|------------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------|
    |.Universality.|......HIGH......|............. |..LOW...|..HIGH..|..LOW...|
    |-----------------|------------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------|
    |.Accuracy.....|.....................|..............|..HIGH..|..LOW...|..LOW...|
    |-----------------|------------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------|
    |.Productivity.|..NOT..LOW..|..HIGH..|..............|.............|..LOW...|
    |-----------------|------------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------|

    1. Foundations, 2. Constructions, 3. Empirics, 4. Interpretations, 5. Speculations.

    This visualised form of your system helped me notice a few things:

    First, an idea cannot be both highly universal and highly accurate (though it can be low on both). Otherwise, your system would fail to account for certain possible outcomes (HIGH, HIGH, [ANY]).

    Second, levels 2 and 3 can be determined solely by Productivity and Accuracy respectively, provided those values are high.

    Third, both levels 1 and 4 can be identified by their high Universality. In fact, they can share the same combination: high universality, low accuracy, and not-low productivity. This makes distinguishing between the two levels ambiguous. But this is not a weakness. On the contrary, I think it shows that your system reflects real-life situations quite well. Often, the difference between interpretation and foundation can be just a matter of belief—I (or we as a society) strongly believe certain things to be true, and so they become foundational within my (our) worldview.

    And, of course, level 5 is also clearly defined, as it lacks any high values.

    Nicely done. I really enjoyed analyzing your system.
  • RogueAI
    3.5k
    the existence of time and spaceAstorre

    Are you talking about physical time and space (space-time)? Also, isn't "there is at least one thinking mind in existence" axiomatically true?
  • Astorre
    373


    Thank you for your comment. Do you think it's possible to provide a precise estimate of each parameter of the idea without empirical methods (psychological or sociological)?

    Currently, the Model does a good job of achieving its explanatory power, but the estimate of each parameter is highly dependent on the interpreter.
  • Astorre
    373


    The examples given here are, of course, not exhaustive. However, even axioms are sometimes revised. This is an extremely rare, but possible, phenomenon.
  • Zebeden
    13
    If you’re asking whether there’s a way to determine an idea’s value without the involvement of an interpreter, then unfortunately I can’t think of any such method. Not every idea requires an empirical approach, I think, but it still requires an interpreter—whether to provide purely logical reasoning for the proposed “weight” of the idea, or simply to assert that X is an obvious axiom without further proof.
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    In Hume, ideas are copies of impressions, and is totally mental in nature. But it is interesting that Hume was talking about vivacity and strength in ideas depending how strong and vivid the resemblance between impressions and corresponding ideas. When perceiving objects in front of you, you are supposed to have most vivid impression and ideas because you see the object in front of you, and the qualities of perception is as real as it can be.

    But if you are trying to recall an image from your distant past memories, for instance a friend you have met 20 year ago last time, then the idea of the image would be faint and weak.

    But I find it a bit challenging to understand how idea could have weights. Or how can ideas be weighed. Weights can be only measured on the physical objects with solidity and mass, and by gravity from the earth.

    Ideas which is purely mental in nature, and copy of the perceived impression cannot have weights. Your thoughts?
  • Sir2u
    3.6k
    The core of my approach is a system for ranking any “human representations of reality” by its weight across three criteria:

    1. Universality — Scope of Applicability
    A measure of how broadly a given idea X can functionally regulate different domains.
    Universality prevents “Niche Blindness” (when an idea applies only within a narrow area while ignoring others).
    Astorre

    How would this be applied, for instance, on the ideas of the birth of a star and the beginning of life? Taking both as ideas about reality based on reality, they are both very "Niche" with little in common. Or does your new method only apply to certain areas of reality?


    The nomadic idea of ​​"home" is tied not to the land, but to everyday life, loved ones, and life itself.Astorre

    I doubt that the concept of home even existed for the nomads They lived mostly where food was available and had little use for the personalized possessions usually found in homes. Early nomads lived in caves or built branch shelters against the sun and rain, they were abandoned when they moved on. Later nomads found that as they moved around, taking advantage of the different places where food was available, that they often returned to the same areas every year. This is when the started do build more solid structures out of stone, even when they still abandoned them as the food ran out they returned the following year to repair and improve.
    The concept of home probably appeared when the started to settle down and grow enough crops to dedicate time to acquire belongings and needing a place to keep them.

    In the history of the world, it was nomads who managed to build the largest (in terms of size) states,Astorre

    Could you give an example of a large nomadic group.
  • Astorre
    373
    ↪Astorre If you’re asking whether there’s a way to determine an idea’s value without the involvement of an interpreter, then unfortunately I can’t think of any such method. Not every idea requires an empirical approach, I think, but it still requires an interpreter—whether to provide purely logical reasoning for the proposed “weight” of the idea, or simply to assert that X is an obvious axiom without further proof.Zebeden



    It's important to clarify here. The proposed model cannot assess the value of an idea or evaluate its truth per se. It's about assessing the weight of an idea in a given mind or group at a given historical point in time.

    Let's give an example. Let's take the classical scientific method of evaluating a proposition. Let's take the statement, for example, "all people are sisters." Classical science insists that the proposition must first be reduced to simple concepts. This creates problems from the very beginning. Let's consider the context of its origin. Historically, it's a feminist slogan. It can be interpreted as "only women are people." From a scientific perspective, this statement has zero weight. However, in the minds of representatives of this movement, the weight of this proposition is maximal, almost fundamental. All reasoning of a group or individual can be built on this proposition, and the proponent of this proposition refuses to admit that it's not true (and is even willing to deal with its opponent). Moreover, a person driven by this idea can begin conducting scientific research that will confirm their arguments. And even be successful in doing so. A person can then begin to act in accordance with this belief.

    Here I see some limitations of classical epistemology. A patently false assertion generates consequences for reality and the lives of ordinary people who aren't even aware of it.

    The model I propose can say: idea X has a weight of U2 in this group. This means that this group will restructure reality in accordance with this idea.

    Of course, I've already slightly revised what I presented at the start.

    At the same time, why did I consider it important to identify the "weight" of an idea? Because this approach can provide a new lens for predicting the viability of certain ideas you intend to instill in a group, as well as provide new explanations for people's behavior within groups.

    But the model faces limitations. For example, I need to identify what ideas group M uses in their everyday lives. We can conduct quantitative and qualitative sociological or psychological studies, and still not obtain verifiable results. Another approach: I can interpret it myself, but then it would be even further from reality.


    How would this be applied, for instance, on the ideas of the birth of a star and the beginning of life? Taking both as ideas about reality based on reality, they are both very "Niche" with little in common. Or does your new method only apply to certain areas of reality?Sir2u


    Speaking of a supernova explosion, the event itself could signify the emergence of a new civilization. But the weight of this idea is near-zero for our everyday lives. Unless, of course, it somehow begins to impact everyday life. A supernova explosion itself is an event that means nothing. But the idea that pops into someone's head: "It wasn't a supernova explosion, but an alien war that will soon reach us"—that already carries weight. For now, the weight of this idea is speculation. If this weight is artificially inflated, it could have incredible consequences. It's just a matter of finding enough believers and presenting the information correctly.
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    "all people are sisters."Astorre
    It can be interpreted as "only women are people."Astorre

    They are propositions. Propositions are either true or false. Ideas can be building block of propositions.
    Ideas are mental image. On their own it has no true or false values. As Hume wrote, ideas can be vivid or faint, strong or weak depending on the type of perception.

    There could be real life cases where propositions could have weighing aspects. For instance,
    1) The guitar is nice.
    2) The guitar is too expensive for my budget.

    Then in order to make decision whether to buy the guitar or not, I must weigh the two propositions. The more heavier proposition will be the foundation of my decision. Even here using "heavier" proposition sounds awkward. Should it not be "more effecting" or "more critical" for my situation?
  • Astorre
    373


    Thanks for your comment. You've pointed out a very important detail. I don't yet know whether I agree with it or not, but it's definitely a weak (unresolved) point in my model.

    I'm grateful because you've made me think and clarify. In fact, that's exactly why I posted this here, not just to boast, "Look how clever I came up with this."

    I want to calmly consider your clarifications and will return with a response later.
  • Corvus
    4.6k


    Sure. Cool. I wasn't saying your idea is wrong. I was just looking at the issue from a different angle. Looking at the ideas and concepts from different angles and keep on discussing in logical point of view, is philosophy in my idea. :)
  • Astorre
    373


    First of all, I would like to thank you again for your comment.

    They are propositions. Propositions are either true or false. Ideas can be building block of propositions.Corvus

    What does Hume do? He says, "This statement is true because I have seen it and it can be verified."

    Ideas are mental image. On their own it has no true or false values. As Hume wrote, ideas can be vivid or faint, strong or weak depending on the type of perceptionCorvus

    Hume would say that by introducing Level 2, I've simply renamed "strong desire" or "hallucination" a "Deductive Construct." If anyone can declare any fantasy a "Level 2 Law," then my model ceases to be analytical and becomes justificatory.

    I don't dispute any of this. In fact, in the starting thread, I even call deductive constructs speculations elevated by an act of will to the level of constitutive law.

    At the same time, I also make it clear from the very beginning and in subsequent posts that my model isn't about what is considered true and what is false. Rather, it's about what a person considers true and what is false.

    Let's return to the guitar example. I'll rephrase it slightly for ease of use and clarity. If you insist, we'll return to your version of the judgments; it'll just be a bit longer.

    So, you go to the store and see a guitar. You make two empirical judgments:

    1. This guitar is good
    2. This guitar is expensive

    To be honest, neither of these judgments are purely empirical. They are evaluative. In the first case, you compared the quality of this guitar with others; in the second case, you compared the price of the guitar with others plus your wallet.

    So what decision will you make? Buy or not buy? Hume would answer: it's not reliably known. Because it's not empirically verifiable. And it will only become known after you buy or don't buy.

    Now let's return to my model. It doesn't establish the truth, but it can help predict behavior. The statements about the guitar in question, according to my approach, are Level 3—empirical. By themselves, they don't regulate anything. But my behavior will be regulated by the Level 2 ideas that prompted me to go to the store. This could be anything, for example:

    1. I'm a brilliant guitarist, and my brilliant playing requires a great instrument.

    or

    2. I'm an amateur who plays for my family on weekends.

    Both of these supra-statements are unverifiable; they're my fantasies, but I've accepted them as Level 2. So, when I'm in the store, I'll take empirical statements and compare them with my Level 2 ideas.

    Empirical evidence won't motivate me. But my chimeras (which may or may not be true) will!

    Moreover, if the Level 2 idea turns out to be a hoax, the guitarist will simply have wasted a ton of money. But reality can also change, and the guitarist will change it thanks to this guitar and his persistence – he will truly become an extraordinary musician. Currently, in the further development of my model, I'm describing how this happens. I'm describing the dynamics of ideas, adding regulators such as "ontological debt," which I wouldn't like to describe here. The model, as presented, has predictive power: will your Level 2 ideas withstand the impact of reality?

    Bottom line: Empiricism is good, I'm not abolishing it. But empiricism doesn't move the world. But our chimeras—false or not—do. That's what this whole model is about.

    This is where the concept of "idea weight" comes in. At first glance, an "idea" is purely mental and physically incapable of having weight or mass. However, it weighs heavily on reality. A person convinces themselves they're an outstanding guitarist, then goes and buys a real, expensive guitar. Marketers will take stock at the end of the year and say, for example, that few expensive guitars were sold this year. New ways to position the product and manipulate minds must be devised to increase sales. Then, a clever marketer will come up with an advertising concept (which is essentially a brainwashing technique) and create contextual advertising about some success story about a boy who dreamed of becoming a guitarist but later became a great musician and owns an expensive guitar.

    Thus, well-crafted and delivered content will encourage more customers to visit the store. What marketers are doing in this case is constructing reality. They aren't exploring the truth, but rather motivating action. The recipient of the advertisement finds themselves defenseless in this situation. After all, they're being sold not the truth, but an idea.

    The proposed model can help assess whether I really want what I want, or am I being fooled?

    This example is also consistent with other cases where people are brainwashed not just by the fake value of a product, but by the fake value of "Values."
  • Philosophim
    3.4k
    Neat project. You might want to read here. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14044/knowledge-and-induction-within-your-self-context/p1

    I set out to prove what knowledge is, and succeeded. I've used this personally for years to great effect. Further, I developed a way to give weight to inductive arguments which I call an inductive hierarchy. Feel free to read the summary from another reader down, it accurately captures the general picture. You'll need something like what I've written to do what you're trying. Take a read and when you're done, I'll chime in on your thread with brainstorms on how to approach your project.
  • Astorre
    373


    There was a recent thread from a biology teacher about love and hate. I immediately noticed your comments and thought, "This guy seems like a constructivist."

    I read your post. I'd like to come back to it a little later, as it intrigued me.

    Your approach is immediately strikingly fundamental and phenomenological. You seem to be one level above my judgments expressed in this thread.

    What else I noticed: these are essentially two facets of the same insight, which is becoming increasingly relevant in the era of post-truth, propaganda, and narrative manipulation.

    Of course, your work is more substantiated, consistent, and logically sound, whereas I was setting myself somewhat more practical goals.

    The material is a bit difficult to digest, as I involuntarily, while reading what you wrote, mentally compare it with what I wrote myself. I think it will take me a couple of days to grasp your approach.
  • Philosophim
    3.4k
    What else I noticed: these are essentially two facets of the same insight, which is becoming increasingly relevant in the era of post-truth, propaganda, and narrative manipulation.

    Of course, your work is more substantiated, consistent, and logically sound, whereas I was setting myself somewhat more practical goals.
    Astorre

    My hope is it can help you with those practical goals. An idea, even if it is correct, is no good if it cannot be practically used.

    The material is a bit difficult to digest, as I involuntarily, while reading what you wrote, mentally compare it with what I wrote myself. I think it will take me a couple of days to grasp your approach.Astorre

    Thank you for the kind words. If you have any questions on it or need clarity, don't hesitate to ask. Either here or in that post as you prefer.
  • Astorre
    373


    I've begun a detailed study of your work, and I'd like to ask a question on this topic, as it's related. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted it.

    You propose a foundation—"Discrete Experience"—a single capacity that cannot be denied without self-refutation. This is quite succinct, given other approaches by rationalist epistemologists of different eras. If you allow me, I'll give my own definition, as I understand it: This is the act of arbitrarily selecting and creating identities (separate "objects" in experience).

    Identity acquired through this mechanism is an elementary particle of knowledge, according to your model.

    After acquiring an "identity," a person, when confronted with similar images in life, constantly re-examines the validity (validity, not truth) of this identity.

    From this, as I understand it, it follows that the "usefulness" and "validity" of an identity are far more important than its "truth."

    The model I propose does roughly the same thing: identity, distilled into a proposition (what I call an idea), is weighted not by hypothetical truth, but by three criteria: universality, precision, and productivity. (In later editions, I also added "intersubjectivity" as a multiplier.)

    So, in your work, you introduce that indivisible unit, developed through discrete experience—identity. All subsequent mental constructs begin with it. There is no "identity" in my model. Logically, it would be correct to place it below the level of "speculation."

    Next. According to your model, by comparing the "identity" "recorded" in the mind with reality (when they collide), a person constantly tests this "identity" for functionality. And this plasticity (rather than fossilization) of identities and the ease of their revision ensure the viability of the species. For example: if you've never seen a bear in real life, but know from fairy tales that bears are shaggy creatures with round ears, kindhearted and honey-loving, but then, upon encountering one in the forest, you discover the bear is running toward you and growling, the speed at which you revise your presets is directly linked to your survival. This is very important and suggests that when reality is lenient and doesn't challenge your identities, your life can unfold like a fairy tale. And constantly challenging your presets teaches you to be more flexible. This conclusion, drawn directly from your model, is very useful to me. On the one hand, it explains developmental stagnation, and on the other, it suggests tools for encouraging the subject to reconsider their "identities." This also suggests that before suggesting an "idea" to someone else, it's best to test it yourself multiple times, otherwise it could lead to pain (from facing reality).

    For now, I'll continue reading and share my thoughts with you as I go.
  • Corvus
    4.6k
    The proposed model can help assess whether I really want what I want, or am I being fooled?

    This example is also consistent with other cases where people are brainwashed not just by the fake value of a product, but by the fake value of "Values."
    Astorre

    Great explanation on the point. Thank you. My thought on the point is still idea is building blocks of propositions (which can be true or false), and also thoughts. Ideas on their own cannot make decisions, judgements or evaluations on the objects, situation or world affairs.

    What makes it possible is reasoning and intuition. We perceive the external world, objects and situations. They register in our brain as and in the forms of ideas. Our reasoning and intuition inspect them and reflect on them, and then make judgements, decisions and evaluations.

    Some ideas are copies of impressions in perception, as Hume puts it. And some ideas are apriori ideas which are innate in origin such as God, freedom and afterlife. It is the faculty of reasoning which processes the ideas from perception into thoughts and knowledge.
  • Alexander Hine
    28
    If you could "weigh" an idea you are most likely asking about two things, its penetrability as a socially accepted mind virus, or something else as a project in terms of utility, outcomes and reward?

    Is this what underpins your inquiry?
  • Astorre
    373


    No. This model claims somewhat greater explanatory power for the reality constructed in the human mind.

    To put it briefly: imagine everything you know. What drives you, why you choose one solution or another, why your thoughts are directed in one direction and not another, how you can accept or reject something. This model also claims to explain social processes in groups, communities, states, etc.

    For example, you want to instill ideals within yourself, your family, the company you work for, or the consumers of your product. You can write to me and we can think together about how this can be done =)
  • Philosophim
    3.4k
    You propose a foundation—"Discrete Experience"—a single capacity that cannot be denied without self-refutation. This is quite succinct, given other approaches by rationalist epistemologists of different eras. If you allow me, I'll give my own definition, as I understand it: This is the act of arbitrarily selecting and creating identities (separate "objects" in experience).Astorre

    One minor suggestion to your own definition. I would remove the term 'arbitrarily'. It may be arbitrary, but it might not. Other than that, I think that's great.

    Identity acquired through this mechanism is an elementary particle of knowledge, according to your model.Astorre

    In its original and quantitative form, it can be perceived as this. That being said, we can further discretely experience this identity into parts. Thus what is elementary can also become a composition.

    After acquiring an "identity," a person, when confronted with similar images in life, constantly re-examines the validity (validity, not truth) of this identity.Astorre

    Yes, that's correct. To be clear, one can hold that remembered identity as distinctive knowledge. They can both re-examine the validity of the identity as something to hold as distinctive knowledge, or apply it and re-examine it as existing apart from the knowledge of the identity as distinctive, but as something which can be matched to reality without contradiction.

    From this, as I understand it, it follows that the "usefulness" and "validity" of an identity are far more important than its "truth."Astorre

    To be clear, I do not arrive at a moral judgement (how we should use knowledge), but an observation of the formulation of knowledge and how a person most likely uses it in their self-context. I do not believe I comment in this paper, but I have explored and concluded that if one wanted to find the truth, this approach to knowledge would still be your best chance at finding it. Meaning a person can use knowledge to seek what is true, or they can use it only to the point of personal emotional benefit. Knowledge is a tool. And like any tool, it can be wielded extremely effectively or with minimal effort.

    The model I propose does roughly the same thing: identity, distilled into a proposition (what I call an idea), is weighted not by hypothetical truth, but by three criteria: universality, precision, and productivity. (In later editions, I also added "intersubjectivity" as a multiplier.)Astorre

    I like this proposal. You'll have some work to do to prove it, but its a great start. In the paper you've read I only briefly touch on intersubjectivity, but I never published the follow up as people would first need to understand and be interested in the first part. Intersubjectivity cannot be first understood without the self-context being understood, so while you cannot exclude it entirely in the proposal for self-context, I think this is a wise approach to add in later.

    So, in your work, you introduce that indivisible unit, developed through discrete experience—identity. All subsequent mental constructs begin with it. There is no "identity" in my model. Logically, it would be correct to place it below the level of "speculation."Astorre

    Correct. The initial formulation is indivisible, but there is no reason why we cannot further divide it into other discrete experiences. "A field of grass, a blade of grass, a piece of grass." You will likely need some type of identity reference when people start to dive deeper into your theory. A common issue in epistemology is the idea of what a definition actually entails. "When does a molehill become a mountain?" Discrete experience answers this nicely. Definitions within a self-context are contextual, as well as can be wordless. They can be incredibly detailed but also as simple as a memory of an overall impression. It is a theory that is not only limited to people, but can be applied to animals as well.

    Next. According to your model, by comparing the "identity" "recorded" in the mind with reality (when they collide), a person constantly tests this "identity" for functionality. And this plasticity (rather than fossilization) of identities and the ease of their revision ensure the viability of the species.Astorre

    Correct. But like anything it comes at a cost. Plasticity is expended energy and time. If one is limited on expended energy and time, fossilization of ideas, especially if they are statistically correct most of the time, is more efficient and can allow an even quicker reaction time.

    For example: if you've never seen a bear in real life, but know from fairy tales that bears are shaggy creatures with round ears, kindhearted and honey-loving, but then, upon encountering one in the forest, you discover the bear is running toward you and growling, the speed at which you revise your presets is directly linked to your survival.Astorre

    In this context, yes. If you could observe the bear in a zoo safely behind a cage, then you could take more time to truly explore the possibilities that the bear is everything the tales said they were, and (in another world) realize that the growl is actually a signal of affection and friendliness. In the case that growl meant what it does in our world, your quick judgement in the wild would save your life.

    This is very important and suggests that when reality is lenient and doesn't challenge your identities, your life can unfold like a fairy tale.Astorre

    Ha ha! Yes, I think this is true. If there is no motivation to use knowledge effectively, it can be a tool of amusement for oneself.

    And constantly challenging your presets teaches you to be more flexible. This conclusion, drawn directly from your model, is very useful to me. On the one hand, it explains developmental stagnation, and on the other, it suggests tools for encouraging the subject to reconsider their "identities." This also suggests that before suggesting an "idea" to someone else, it's best to test it yourself multiple times, otherwise it could lead to pain (from facing reality).Astorre

    All sound points. I'm glad to hear its useful to you!
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