So what would you have me add. A part of their theology, which I have included in their overall ideology? It is already there.

IOW, there is nothing else that they follow. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Still missing the point, which is that you aren’t lacking in your description of atheism, but in your description of religion. A religion needs to be an institute, some kind of social arrangement, and it needs to appeal to faith. Unassociated people with a variety of reasons for having the same status of belief about the same topic don’t constitute a religion. Atheism is not a social institution, and doesn’t require appeals to faith, so it isn’t a religion.

There could be a religion with atheism as one of its tenets, if some social institute claimed that people ought to disbelieve all gods as a matter of faith. But that still wouldn’t make all of atheism a religion.

We also shouldn't assume everyone executed during the iquisition was relatively innocent.
— christian2017

What had they done, even if guilty, to deserve death?

When Christianity ran out of heretics to kill, they turned to killing witches.

How many of those do you think were real witches and deserved to die?

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Probably not many. Not all of the Christian church participated in the Inquisition. Are you aware of all the killing done by Atheist/Socialist rulers?

I couldn't paste the picture for some reason

but google or bing

The Death Toll of Communism.

Communism/Atheism has killed far more than religion in alot less time. Just imagine the death toll in 500 years as far as Atheism goes. This doesn't even include abortion. How do you feel about Abortion?

I do not like the law of karma either. But my point is this even if it were true that ideology is a pre-requisite of religion it does not follow that atheism is a religion because first, atheism is simply a refusal to believe in God and it does not entail a positive doctrine because an atheist can be a Buddhist, a materialist or even someone who simply refuses to believe in any ideology, second we have to point out the distinguishing or distinctive feature of something - since there can be ideologies other than religious ideologies, ideology is not the distinguishing feature of religion and I suggested belief in a moral providence is. If you believe that to have an ideology is to have a religion then that is not in accord with facts and you are redefining religion in a way that it would loose what can be regarded as its most distinctive feature. Since every ideology is a religion agreeing or disagreeing with religion would become a triviality and if you think there has to be some basis of disagreement then that base can only be what is regarded as distinctive of religion.

Learn what words mean. You are both embarrassing yourselves.[/quote]

With that comment...YOU embarrassed yourself.

So how about digging out. Instead of just slinging mud, do you think I am wrong about...

1) SOME (not all) dictionaries describe it that way (lack of "belief" in any gods).

2) Dictionaries do not actually "define" words, but rather tell us how the word is used.

3) Most people suppose "atheist" means "denying that gods (or God) exists."

4) That I have NEVER met, nor do I know of, any person who describes him/herself as an "atheist" who does not "believe" there are no gods...or who does not "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one."

5) That atheism IS a "belief system."


And while you are at it, I asked a question testing #4. Here it is again:

If you describe yourself as an atheist: Do you either "believe" (you may substitute "guess") that no gods exist...or that it is more likely that no gods exist than that at least one does?

That makes no difference. A belief system is a network of beliefs. You qualify as an atheist both if you lack any belief concerning gods or with the following one belief, "gods don't exist". One belief is not a network of beliefs, so one belief is not an ideology. It's simple English.

Baden
9.7k
↪Frank Apisa

That makes no difference. A belief system is a network of beliefs. You qualify as an atheist both if you lack any belief concerning gods or with the following one belief, "gods don't exist". One belief is not a network of beliefs, so one belief is not an ideology. It's simple English. — Baden

The words "belief system" is easily understood to be correct as used in my comment, but if you want to take exception to the inclusion of "system" to the point where you suppose I am "embarrassing myself" by doing so...okay. I guess you have decided to dig deeper.

So let's say that ATHEISM is built on just one, tiny "belief." And that "tiny belief" is that the person identifying as an atheist "believes" is that among all the things that possibly exist in this vast universe...the one thing that does not...is a god or some sort. We'll put aside all the other "beliefs" that deal with the supposed stupidity and naivety of people are who "believe" in the other direction on the issue; we'll put aside those that deal with the many problems that "believers in the other direction" cause humanity; we'll put aside all the other ancillary "beliefs" that cause people to assign "atheist" as a descriptor to self.

That initial "belief", Baden, is about as tiny as the tiny "belief" at the core of theism...which, at least, the theists are ethical and truthful enough to acknowledge as "belief"...that they KNOW that a GOD does exist in the REALITY of existence.

It does make a difference, Baden. I am not embarrassing myself by making what amounts to a rational defense of agnosticism as a contrast to both theism and atheism.

:yawn:

"Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

https://www.google.com/search?q=atheism&oq=atheism&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3j69i60.2443j0j7&client=ms-android-samsung-gj-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Baden
9.7k
↪Frank Apisa

:yawn:

"Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

https://www.google.com/search?q=atheism&oq=atheism&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3j69i60.2443j0j7&client=ms-android-samsung-gj-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8 — Baden

Yeah...and that does NOT negate anything I have said. Nor does it make anything I have said "embarrassing myself."

But you refusing to acknowledge that...and continuing to dig deeper...should be embarrassing to you.

It's simple logic, a lack of a belief is not a belief in the same way a lack of an apple is not an apple. And an ideology is a system of beliefs, so requires multiple beliefs. So, think of an ideology as being like a basket of apples. I tell you I have no apples and you tell me I therefore have a basket of apples. That's how wrong you are.

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist.[5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[1][2][7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Bottom line: I personally know of NO person who uses "atheist" as a descriptor who does not "believe" there are no gods...or who does not "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

I am convinced THOSE TWO "BELIEFS" are the reason they use atheist as a descriptor...NOT JUST BECAUSE THEY LACK A "BELIEF" IN ANY GODS.

I lack a "belief" that there are any gods. All atheists should lack that "belief." I also lack a "belief" that there is at least one god." All agnostics should lack that "belief."

To insist that because I lack the former "belief" I must consider myself an atheist is absurd.

Note that even if I have one apple, I still don't have a basket. Either way, your claim fails.

Baden
9.7k
Not that even if I have one apple, I still don't have a basket. Either way, your claim fails. — Baden

My claim (that I am NOT an atheist) does not fail.

But you are dug in...and nothing can be done about it.

I'll just laugh at the need of atheists to include agnostics in their ranks...although I do understand. It would increase the intellectualism of atheism considerably.

If you're looking for an ideological version of atheism, try anti-theism.

Baden
9.7k
If you're looking for an ideological version of atheism, try anti-theism. — Baden

I, for one, am not. looking for that.

I realize there are theists (people who assert they "believe" there is at least one god or who assert they "believe" it is more likely that there is at least one god than that there are none)...

...and there also are non-theists (people who do not "believe" there is at least one god and who do not "believe" it is more likely that there is at least one god than that there are none).

Of the non-theists...there are some who not only reject the "belief" that there is at least one god or that it is more likely that here is...but who also assert that there are no gods...or who assert that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one. THOSE PEOPLE most often designate themselves as ATHEISTS.

A second group of the non-theists reject the "belief" that there is at least one god or that it is more likely that here is...but who do NOT assert the opposite, that there are no gods....or that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one. That second group is willing to acknowledge that it is impossible to logically assert "there is at least one god" or "there are no gods"....and that it is absurd to suppose one can calculate which is more likely. They most often designate themselves as AGNOSTICS.

Some Agnostics (I AM ONE OF THEM) resent the hell out of atheists insisting that we are atheists.

Frankly, the only reason I see for atheists insisting that anyone who lacks a "belief" any gods exist IS AN ATHEIST...is because they want to pretend that they do not have the two "beliefs" that usually lead to someone designating him/herself an atheist. They want to pretend there is no "belief" involved in using that descriptor.

They ought to get over that fiction.

I don't care what you call yourself or whether someone calls me agnostic, atheist, non-theist etc because of the fact that I don't believe in gods. I don't see what substantial difference it makes. I'm just explaining the meaning of words and drawing logical conclusions, one, a very obvious one, which is that being an atheist does not necessarily entail having an ideology. It could, if you were also an anti-theist, but it's not part of what defines atheism. That's just reality.

I guess you're American and afraid of the word "atheism" because, well, America. Even, I, being Irish, feel a twinge. But it ain't nothin' scary really.

Probably not many. Not all of the Christian church participated in the Inquisition. Are you aware of all the killing done by Atheist/Socialist rulers? — christian2017

Yes. All allowed and encouraged by governments. Including Christian governments, that all encouraged inquisitions and jihads.

Regards
DL

Communism/Atheism has killed far more than religion in alot less time. Just imagine the death toll in 500 years as far as Atheism goes. This doesn't even include abortion. How do you feel about Abortion? — christian2017

Think of the numbers that religions have killed for the 4,500 years before that.

Abortion? Wrong issue here, but lest you forget, most were done by Christian women.

Regards
DL.

even someone who simply refuses to believe in any ideology, — Vaibhav Narula

An ideology is a thinking system. We all think and follow the thinking by actions. All people have some kind of ideology. Thinking people all think in a way that falls under some ideology proposed by someone.

That is true for you and I and everyone else.

Sure, we have started to meld words like atheist agnostic, religious agnostic religious atheist etc.

That is why I just call them all ideologies to KIS.

This post shows how foolish the labelling is getting.

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Regards
DL

Baden
9.7k
↪Frank Apisa

I don't care what you call yourself or whether someone calls me agnostic, atheist, non-theist etc because of the fact that I don't believe in gods. I don't see what substantial difference it makes. I'm just explaining the meaning of words and drawing logical conclusions, one, a very obvious one, which is that being an atheist does not necessarily entail having an ideology. It could, if you were also an anti-theist, but it's not part of what defines atheism. That's just reality. — Baden

The reality is that I do care that SOME atheists insist I am an atheist by dint of an inconsistent and self-serving "definition."

I will not accept it.

And I continue to maintain that "atheism" has at its core "belief" just as much as does theism.

Baden
9.7k
I guess you're American and afraid of the word "atheism" because, well, America. Even, I, being Irish, feel a twinge. But it ain't nothin' scary really. — Baden

I am not afraid of atheism...AND I DO NOT CONSIDER IT SOMETHING NEGATIVE.

I meet several times each year in NYC with a group of 7 people...all of whom I met in another forum (Abuzz, the now defunct forum of the NY Times)...and all 6 of the others are atheists...strong atheists. I love 'em...I have no negative thoughts about them because of their atheism. My annoyance with atheists has nothing whatever to do with anger, fright, or opposition to atheism. I just am NOT an atheist...and I will not have those atheists who insist that I am...do it without fighting it.

As I said I don't care a jot what you call yourself.

Atheism is God denial, no religion involved.

Yes people claim to be Atheist who misrepresent it.

If that's conflated to mean lack of any belief or void of belief, I don't agree.

Probably not many. Not all of the Christian church participated in the Inquisition. Are you aware of all the killing done by Atheist/Socialist rulers?
— christian2017

Yes. All allowed and encouraged by governments. Including Christian governments, that all encouraged inquisitions and jihads.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Actually Europe had a pseudo-theocracy at that time in history. Feel free to educate yourself on the people's lack of say during the middle ages, renaissance, and also enlightenment period. This is why America was unique when America formed. You need to read more history books.

Communism/Atheism has killed far more than religion in alot less time. Just imagine the death toll in 500 years as far as Atheism goes. This doesn't even include abortion. How do you feel about Abortion?
— christian2017

Think of the numbers that religions have killed for the 4,500 years before that.

Abortion? Wrong issue here, but lest you forget, most were done by Christian women.

Regards
DL. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Most religions aren't like Christianity and the other religions are far worse than Christianity.

Actually see as how communism and atheism is more prevalent today, its safe to say atheism is far more dangerous than religion.

Why do you say most abortions were done by Christian Women?

I'm probably never going to convince you of anything because you have different i idea of right and wrong than me. I think my ethics are good. You think your ethics are good. But my ethics are different from your ethics.

An ideology is a thinking system. We all think and follow the thinking by actions. All people have some kind of ideology. Thinking people all think in a way that falls under some ideology proposed by someone. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You are again redefining something - to think is to have an ideology thereby every disagreement is reduced to triviality. Hence I had emphasized on first stating the distinctive or distinguishing feature of something. Thereby we can avoid the fault of multiplying unnecessary categories which you pointed out.

ztaziz
14
Atheism is God denial, no religion involved.

Yes people claim to be Atheist who misrepresent it.

If that's conflated to mean lack of any belief or void of belief, I don't agree. — ztaziz

I suspect I agree with you strongly, but the wording was a bit ambiguous.

I suspect what you are saying is that the atheistic claim that atheism IS JUST A LACK OF BELIEF...is bullshit...then I agree completely.

It is almost certain that anyone and everyone who uses "atheist" as a descriptor...either "believes" there are no gods...or "believes" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

One of those "beliefs" is an absolute necessity for anyone who uses "atheist" to describe themselves.

Atheism is God denial, no religion involved.

Yes people claim to be Atheist who misrepresent it.

If that's conflated to mean lack of any belief or void of belief, I don't agree. — ztaziz

1 Do you not fit the description of that word?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio
The Latin term religiō, origin of the modern lexeme religion (via Old French/Middle Latin[2]) is of ultimately obscure etymology. It is recorded beginning in the 1st century BC, i.e. in Classical Latin at the beginning of the Roman Empire, notably by Cicero, in the sense of "scrupulous or strict observance of the traditional cultus". In classic antiquity, meant conscientiousness, sense of right, moral obligation, or duty towards anything[3] and was used mostly in secular or mundane contexts.[4][5]

2 You do not agree with the many atheist priests and churches? Why not?

They seem to be leading atheists. Do you not have an ideology just as the religious do?

3 You have an ideology just as most adults do. What is it?

Regards
DL

You think your ethics are good. But my ethics are different from your ethics. — christian2017

If push came to shove, I doubt that we would differ much.

If you want to go all over the place, issue wise, do it in P M.

Better still, start on O.P. on the morality of Christianity verses Gnostic Christianity.

I will clean your clock.

Genocidal satanic gods fall quite quickly.

Regards
DL