• Echarmion
    2.5k
    What people want to inject into their bodies is none of my business (and what I inject into mine should be none of theirs, but alas the latter was not self-explanatory during covid...)Tzeentch

    Vaccination and vaccination mandates are not new concepts. Why was the realisation that your actions affect others such a problem during COVID?

    Also there seems to be tension with this other thing you write:

    Also, at what point do the people who voluntarily partake in unhealthy lifestyles get to take responsibility?Tzeentch

    Is not refusing a vaccine also "partaking in an unhealthy lifestyle"? Or is there some qualitative difference?

    What is also remarkable, I think, is that both vaccination "camps" adopted a rhetoric that displayed the other side as a threat to their health and freedoms.

    Our western societies seemed ill equipped to deal with the basic tension of individualism vs collective actions.

    The health care sector simply isn't organized like this. Usually made up of either private enterprises or controlled by municipal authorities there doesn't exist a centralized command that a nation would need.ssu

    It might also be a symptom of adopting the business approach to healthcare. Neither the army nor the border guards are set up as a business. We accept that they have to provide a specific result, not just be efficient.

    With medicine we followed the neoliberal line that market principles create efficiency, and efficiency is always good. Only we do actually care about getting specific minimum results in healthcare.
  • Tzeentch
    3.5k
    Why was the realisation that your actions affect others such a problem during COVID?Echarmion

    The vaccines weren't designed to stop the spread. That story used to be perpetuated by politicians who tried to guilt trip their citizens into taking a vaccine that they didn't trust.

    Is not refusing a vaccine also "partaking in an unhealthy lifestyle"?Echarmion

    No, of course not. Normal, healthy people didn't have anything to fear from covid.

    What is also remarkable, I think, is that both vaccination "camps" adopted a rhetoric that displayed the other side as a threat to their health and freedoms.Echarmion

    The decision to take a vaccine is bound to a human right of bodily autonomy.

    To me, that means something. If that means nothing to you, then I have nothing to say to you.

    Also, the idea that not taking the vaccine somehow turned one into a health hazard is completely made up.

    Our western societies seemed ill equipped to deal with the basic tension of individualism vs collective actions.Echarmion

    Ill-equipped in the sense that it allowed mass hysteria to take hold for several years.
  • Echarmion
    2.5k
    The vaccines weren't designed to stop the spread. That story used to be perpetuated by politicians who tried to guilt trip their citizens into taking a vaccine that they didn't trust.Tzeentch

    They were designed to create antibodies. Not sure at what point it could have been predicted that this would not confer sterile immunity.

    No, of course not. Normal, healthy people didn't have anything to fear from covid.Tzeentch

    Unfortunately for some people, they found out too late that they weren't in fact healthy.

    But this cuts to the heart of the issue: that this is somehow a conflict between the "healthy" and the "unhealthy" rather than a communal problem requiring a communal solution.

    The decision to take a vaccine is bound to a human right of bodily autonomy.

    To me, that means something. If that means nothing to you, then I have nothing to say to you.
    Tzeentch

    Sure. But does that mean we can ignore whether someone is vaccinated (not just against COVID)?

    Also, the idea that not taking the vaccine somehow turned one into a health hazard is completely made up.Tzeentch

    Well as I indicated I think the framing was bad. It seemed to be the framing that came naturally to everyone though. It was about the individually good people vs the individually bad people. Very similar to how the US gun control debate ended up. Encouraging people to look at themselves as the expression of some basic virtue rather than as part of a greater whole.

    Ill-equipped in the sense that it allowed mass hysteria to take hold for several years.Tzeentch

    Well, once we collectively write off one side or the other as "hysterical", we made sure that further communication is impossible.
  • Tzeentch
    3.5k
    Unfortunately for some people, they found out too late that they weren't in fact healthy.Echarmion

    Which is why I stated specifically we should go easy on this group during the first year. Give them a year to get their shit together. If they don't, then that's their responsibility and not mine.

    The minority who is chronically at risk can be accomodated.

    But this cuts to the heart of the issue: that this is somehow a conflict between the "healthy" and the "unhealthy" rather than a communal problem requiring a communal solution.Echarmion

    No one gave a fuck about healthy people who did not want to take vaccines - at no point during the hysteria were their concerns taken seriously, so I don't buy any allusions to community.

    It was 'us vs. them', and healthy people were on the receiving end of it. Critical voices were silenced, people treated as second class citizens, etc. , European leaders went on national television overtly threatening healthy people who refused the vaccines.

    There was no community. It was tyrannical one-way traffic and the damage this has done is enormous.

    Sure. But does that mean we can ignore whether someone is vaccinated (not just against COVID)?Echarmion

    Yes. Vaccines are there for people who feel unsafe to protect them. This is how vaccines have always functioned. It's a personal choice.

    Well as I indicated I think the framing was bad. It seemed to be the framing that came naturally to everyone though.Echarmion

    I can't speak for other countries, but in the Netherlands where I live the framing was one-way traffic. I wish there was more of a platform for critical voices, but this was systemically suppressed, disregarded as 'misinformation' - there were literally cases of the Dutch government communicating with social media platforms to censor certain people. It was their policy.

    Of course, in the end it turned out the Dutch government itself was the main peddler of misinformation as almost everything that came out of their mouths turned out to be false.

    This has nothing to do with framing on my end. I don't have a problem with people who disagree with me at all. The problem is that there was never any discussion. This is why I call it a hysteria.

    Very similar to how the US gun control debate ended up.Echarmion

    I don't agree that the two can in any way be compared.
  • Echarmion
    2.5k
    Which is why I stated specifically we should go easy on this group during the first year. Give them a year to get their shit together. If they don't, then that's their responsibility and not mine.Tzeentch

    No one gave a fuck about healthy people who did not want to take vaccines - at no point during the hysteria were their concerns taken seriously, so I don't buy any allusions to community.

    It was 'us vs. them', and healthy people were on the receiving end of it.
    Tzeentch

    But you seem to be simply perpetuating the "us vs them". You're merely placing yourself at the other side of the debate, not asking why it's that way in the first place.

    There was no community.Tzeentch

    There is a real world community though, and it is inescapable.

    Yes. Vaccines are there for people who feel unsafe to protect them. This is how vaccines have always functioned. It's a personal choice.Tzeentch

    Is it? I think vaccines have usually been considered a weapon against disease more generally. In the best case, a means to wipe out dangerous diseases completely.
  • ssu
    8.3k
    It might also be a symptom of adopting the business approach to healthcare. Neither the army nor the border guards are set up as a business. We accept that they have to provide a specific result, not just be efficient.Echarmion
    Or simply that the armed forces are an organization where future hypothetical plans have great importance. In every army there are multitude of officers all the time fighting and planning WW3. Operational Plans (OPPLAN) are most important to armies and it's armies are organizations perfected to issue commands and execute them in an coordinated fashion. The best example is this is that the US Army really made a plan to fight a zombie attack (see Counter-Zombie Dominance)! Yes, they say it was for training, but you never know...

    In healthcare it's basically reacting what patients come in from the front door or into the ER. And that's basically it. If 20 patients arrive in a hour usually, then that's the volume to what everything is set up. If that becomes 200 patients in an hour then the doctors have to do a lot of triage and the waiting areas become quite ugly.
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    No one gave a fuck about healthy people who did not want to take vaccines - at no point during the hysteria were their concerns taken seriously, so I don't buy any allusions to community.

    It was 'us vs. them', and healthy people were on the receiving end of it. Critical voices were silenced, people treated as second class citizens, etc. , European leaders went on national television overtly threatening healthy people who refused the vaccines.

    There was no community. It was tyrannical one-way traffic and the damage this has done is enormous.
    Tzeentch

    We were able to see just how many people (the vast overwhelming majority of people) are willing to throw away their basic rights simply because they are told to. We also saw how they will defend their choice to abandon their basic rights with the weakest, flimsiest bullshit, and then go on to indiscriminately impose the same upon everyone else.

    It is pathetic that these sheep continue to double down on it all, despite the fact Coronavirus-2020-hindsight has proven lockdown and vaccine policy to be an absolute disaster. It is a case of too much pride and zero dignity.
  • Tzeentch
    3.5k
    That about sums it up. I can safely say that it has changed my outlook on humanity as a whole. Perhaps worst of all is the deafening silence afterwards. As all the lies were exposed and myths dispelled, there is still scarcely a sign of any reflection.

    You say sheep, but I'm more reminded of stampeding wildebeest who don't care whom or what they trample in their blind panic.
  • frank
    14.9k
    So has your hospital learnt as an organization something when the next lethal pandemic hits?ssu

    I don't think so. With this one, the pathogen was airborne. They gave maintenance the job of making every ICU room a negative-pressure room (to vent the virus out the window through a hepa filter.) This daunting job was done, and done really well, practically overnight. That demonstrates that the maintenance people had capable leadership and the commitment to excellence.

    On the other hand, when it came time to start vaccinating the staff, I had to stand in line for four freakin' hours to get my dose. That shows that whoever was in charge of vaccinating was a moron, which was eventually admitted. It's not like War and Peace where no one is allowed to point out fuck-ups.

    With Covid19 there was a huge amount that we learned in the first month. We radically changed strategies as people from around the world put their heads together about what worked and what didn't. It will be the same thing the next time around. We don't know exactly which supplies we'll need, what kind of transmission to plan for, and so on.

    But it's not true that healthcare can't respond to emergencies. Every American hospital has a disaster coordinator and everybody knows what they're supposed to do if there's an industrial or weather disaster, or the ubiquitous mass shooting.
  • RogueAI
    2.7k
    I don't buy that it was some nefarious plot by government to tyrannize citizens. I think the lockdowns were was just an overreaction, and if we had to do it all over again, with the facts we have now, we wouldn't do lockdowns.
  • ssu
    8.3k
    But it's not true that healthcare can't respond to emergencies. Every American hospital has a disaster coordinator and everybody knows what they're supposed to do if there's an industrial or weather disaster, or the ubiquitous mass shooting.frank
    And those mass shootings are unfortunately quite frequent on the national level. And earthquakes and hurricanes can be anticipated to hit certain places. Yet as you said, usually there's that one disaster coordinator, and likely he or she has some other admin work too.

    But you did mention quite a lot of issues that make our society far more prepared to any other era. Information travels quickly and new practices can be adapted very quickly.
  • frank
    14.9k
    Yet as you said, usually there's that one disaster coordinator, and likely he or she has some other admin work too.ssu

    You shouldn't have more than one disaster coordinator. You need one voice in command.

    But you did mention quite a lot of issues that make our society far more prepared to any other era.ssu

    Absolutely.
  • Echarmion
    2.5k


    I wouldn't even necessarily call the lockdowns an overreaction. When states felt that infection rates went beyond what could be handled, the lockdowns were reasonable as a short term solution imo. Perhaps they were even a bit late overall.

    The problem came with the extension of limited, partial lockdowns and the proliferation of a bewildering array of contact regulations afterwards. A simple set of advisories, robust contact tracking as well as avoiding large (indoor) gatherings might have been just as effective and lost less trust.

    It is pathetic that these sheep continue to double down on it all, despite the fact Coronavirus-2020-hindsight has proven lockdown and vaccine policy to be an absolute disaster. It is a case of too much pride and zero dignity.Merkwurdichliebe

    Obviously if you call someone an undignified, prideful sheep they'll not make a very great effort to second guess their choices. They'll just label you an anti vax conspiracy nutjob and ignore you.

    The politicisation of the issue has made it very difficult to analyse the successes and failures.

    For example, there's lots of criticism of the mandates on the "experimental vaccine", but little discussion on other issues with the vaccine policy. Like private firms holding patents for vaccines that were essentially publicly funded. Or the hoarding of doses by the richer countries which not only left poorer nations out in the cold, but also decreased the effectiveness of the program overall.
  • Janus
    15.9k
    Yes, it's ridiculous to claim that vaccines were any kind of "government plot"; here in Australia, Scott Morrison's government was criticised for not securing the vaccines quickly enough; it was apparent that very many people felt that he was not taking the job of protecting the populace seriously. The third world countries were complaining because they were last in line to receive the vaccines; another example of the wealthier, privileged nations being prioritised.
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    Obviously if you call someone an undignified, prideful sheep they'll not make a very great effort to second guess their choices. They'll just label you an anti vax conspiracy nutjob and ignore you.Echarmion

    It is also obvious that if someone is an undignified, prideful sheep, they will possess zero capability to second guess their choice to do what they are told. There is absolutely nothing that anyone can do or say to change this. And part of their programming requires them to label people anti vax conspiracy nutjobs when a person does not fall in line. Pathetic
  • Echarmion
    2.5k
    PatheticMerkwurdichliebe

    Is what I call people that summarily declare large amounts of other people essentially subhuman.
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    Is what I call people that summarily declare large amounts of other people essentially subhumanEcharmion

    Maybe so. Perhaps it is also pathetic to declare Nazis and Soviets subhuman. Nevertheless, it is certain that if one is born homo-sapien and proceeds through life as an undignified, prideful sheep, what else is one but subhuman.
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    I can safely say that it has changed my outlook on humanity as a whole. Perhaps worst of all is the deafening silence afterwards. As all the lies were exposed and myths dispelled, there is still scarcely a sign of any reflection.Tzeentch

    For me as well. Prior to this, I always suspected a portion of humanity was highly susceptible to such a charade, but in my wildest dreams I could never have imagined that it was this widespead. It is unnerving seeing the absence of any reflection or remorse over the lies and manipulation, it is very likely to happen again, and next time they may be more aggressive towards any who fail to comply.

    You say sheep, but I'm more reminded of stampeding wildebeest who don't care whom or what they trample in their blind panic.Tzeentch

    :lol: very true
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    I don't buy that it was some nefarious plot by government to tyrannize citizens. I think the lockdowns were was just an overreaction, and if we had to do it all over again, with the facts we have now, we wouldn't do lockdownsRogueAI

    It it a hard thing to prove, indeed. The initial lockdown was more than likely an overreaction. However, the later lockdowns combined with mandates of an experimental vaccine wreak of coordinated corruption more and more as time passes. I disagree about doing it over again, I believe next time it will be just as easy to get people to willingly comply, and this time noncompliance will be met with real violence from the state (arrests, workcamps, guns pointed at citizens, &c).
  • Tzeentch
    3.5k
    I think a lot of things came together.

    On one hand there are people in high places who probably felt they should "never waste a good crisis" - people like Schwab, Bill Gates, etc. - they've long had some funny ideas about what the world should look like. There's little hard evidence to implicate these people, but I have no doubt they have major influence on politicians on the national level. Schwab famously called the pandemic a "window of opportunity" to roll out his ideas. At that point, hard evidence or no, I know enough.

    Then there's big pharma, which clearly had perverse incentives to contribute to the media storm, and did so on a gigantic scale.

    Finally there are politicians on the national level, who probably realized at some point that they had made a grave error, but did not want to take the fall politically, and instead doubled down on the narrative.

    The people themselves are simply not equipped to deal with this kind of fuckery. Under normal circumstances people are reasonably capable of critical thought, but not when the information landscape is thoroughly poisoned on this scale, from places of authority no less (WHO, national governments, etc.).

    A perfect storm of all the worst elements of humanity.
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    On one hand there are people in high places who probably felt they should "never waste a good crisis" - people like Schwab, Bill Gates, etc. - they've long had some funny ideas about what the world should look like. There's little hard evidence to implicate these people, but I have no doubt they have major influence on politicians on the national level. Schwab famously called the pandemic a "window of opportunity" to roll out his ideas. At that point, hard evidence or no, I know enough.Tzeentch

    Too little hard evidence is what makes it all so murky. That's what gives the herd the right to deem anything that does not conform to the official narrative as wackadoodle conspiracy theory. However, there are indeed super elites with massive stake in the Game, and unimaginable influence over ngo's, igo's, io's, and mnc's, They are out there in public making their intentions known, it is no secret. Why can't people see that something is afoot?
    It is obvious that they are unelected nonofficials pulling strings on national and global levels, with far more leverage and fewer restraints than any existing government. Perhaps they are completely altruistic and are genuinely concerned about everyone's best interest. But what have they ever done to show that is the case. They just keep shitting out these weird ideas and agendas, which by the way, seem to only apply with a double standard to the Modern West, and never to anyone else. Peculiar. Luckily it is all just a bunch of wackadoodle conspiracy theory, we can all rest easy that there is no fuckery going on with the most powerful men in the world.
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    Then there's big pharma, which clearly had perverse incentives to contribute to the media storm, and did so on a gigantic scale.Tzeentch

    Ill repeat what I posted about the fuckery over covid-vaccine-injury-claims.

    [...] pandemic-era emergency declarations bar the vaccine injured from suing vaccine manufacturers in civil court. Those with a COVID-19 vaccine injury are also prohibited from pursuing compensation through the standard Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP)

    CICP is designed to provide compensation to individuals who suffer serious injuries as a direct result of the administration of certain countermeasures, such as vaccines, drugs, or medical devices, used to respond to public health emergencies. It covers injuries resulting from pandemic vaccines and other countermeasures.

    VICP, on the other hand, specifically focuses on compensating individuals who experience injuries or adverse reactions caused by vaccines covered under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. This program primarily deals with routine childhood vaccines.

    WHY????

    How fortuitously convenient that the live public covid vaccination experiment falls within protected cicp guidelines. So very convenient for those pharmaceutical companies that suffered so much under the weight of record profits during the pandemic.
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    Finally there are politicians on the national level, who probably realized at some point that they had made a grave error, but did not want to take the fall politically, and instead doubled down on the narrative.Tzeentch

    They are a bunch of flatterers. I believe it was Diogenes that said the flatterer is the beast with the sharpest bite. They follow the sheep as much as the sheep follow them. Mostly a bunch of useless swine that need to be held to account with strict penalties by the sheep. One can dream.

    The people themselves are simply not equipped to deal with this kind of fuckery. Under normal circumstances people are reasonably capable of critical thought, but not when the information landscape is thoroughly poisoned on this scale, from places of authority no less (WHO, national governments, etc.).Tzeentch

    It was to become the best funded, and most effective propaganda campaign in world history. And it directly targeted our basic rights as the enemy to the greater good of humanity. Freedom of speech and press were met with censureship everywhere...Everywhere. Freedom of assembly met with massive home confinement and social distancing. Freedom of petition met with ridicule, cancelation and blacklisting. Freedom of religion met with lockdown of churches, temples, synagogues, mosques, &c.

    As you say:
    A perfect storm of all the worst elements of humanityTzeentch
  • AmadeusD
    2k
    We were able to see just how many people (the vast overwhelming majority of people) are willing to throw away their basic rights simply because they are told to. We also saw how they will defend their choice to abandon their basic rights with the weakest, flimsiest bullshit, and then go on to indiscriminately impose the same upon everyone else.

    It is pathetic that these sheep continue to double down on it all, despite the fact Coronavirus-2020-hindsight has proven lockdown and vaccine policy to be an absolute disaster. It is a case of too much pride and zero dignity.
    Merkwurdichliebe

    I can't help but laugh at the lack of self-awareness here. The exact same attitude present in those who went gung-ho and demonized those resistant to public health protocol is present in this dismissive, inhumane reading of the other side. You also can't (No, you can't) be sure that those public health protocols didn't ensure a far-less intense negative outcome from the pandemic than without.

    That said, I think your screed DOES apply to those who are, since let's say last August, still making the claims made two years ago, and still expecting people to behave in what are (regardless of the previous ssituation) definitely absurd and pointless ways now.

    wreak of coordinated corruption more and more as time passes.Merkwurdichliebe
    maybe this is true if you've been predisposed from the jump to leap to this conclusion. In actual fact, all it reeks of in hindsight is more-than-initially-assumed incompetence. Which is, let's face it, the norm. There is no such thing as a competent government, and least of all when it comes to public health. We don't need to invoke any intent to get the results we got.
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    You also can't (No, you can't) be sure that those public health protocols didn't ensure a far-less intense negative outcome from the pandemic than without.AmadeusD

    Indeed! It is like disproving God. The fact that we will never know the possible outcomes to alternate strategies is a testament to its irreproachability. We survived, and the policy saved us all. What else do we have to go on.

    Its just...I can't stop thinking about how the process of law was so rapidly abandoned as the fundamental liberties of citizens in "so-called" free societies were blatantly trampled upon. People lost their livelihoods over vaccine mandates - experimental vaccines which turned out to be quite ineffective.

    Whatever...We survived, and the policy saved us all. What else do we have to go on.
  • jorndoe
    3.4k
    people in high places [...] Schwab, Bill Gates [...] big pharma [...] politicians on the national level [...] WHO, national governmentsTzeentch

    :D

    I have no doubt they have major influence [...] people themselves are simply not equipped to deal with this kind of fuckeryTzeentch

    Too little hard evidence is what makes it all so murky. That's what gives the herd the right to deem anything that does not conform to the official narrative as wackadoodle conspiracy theory.Merkwurdichliebe

    Yeah, Mar 12, 2023.
  • AmadeusD
    2k
    s just...I can't stop thinking about how the process of law was so rapidly abandoned as the fundamental liberties of citizens in "so-called" free societies were blatantly trampled upon.Merkwurdichliebe

    As a legal professional, yep. Fully agreed. Regardless of the possibility that it was, in hindsight, right, there’s always a niggling Kantian asking whether that matters
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    Regardless of the possibility that it was, in hindsight, right, there’s always a niggling Kantian asking whether that mattersAmadeusD

    Goddamn Kantian n********, all concerned about things that may matter :gasp:
  • Merkwurdichliebe
    2.6k
    We don't need to invoke any intent to get the results we got.AmadeusD

    Of course. The results was that the covid pandemic was declared over. Everything was peachy, and worked out perfectly. Any perceived fuckery throughout the whole scenario is kooky talk.
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