Here's the actual report:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm

The upshot? Even if you are vaccinated, wear a mask at large public events.

That's all. Nothing new.

I’m sure vaccination helps. From what the news tells me, those who are hospitalized with the disease are largely unvaccinated. What they never mentioned was how quickly the virus can circulate among the vaccinated. In any case I much rather assume the risk of living than let governments, all of which failed to contain the virus, continue to contain human beings.

In any case I much rather assume the risk of living than let governments, all of which failed to contain the virus, continue to contain human beings. — NOS4A2

Isn't that why we have governments in the first place? Containing us?

That's all. Nothing new. — Banno

As this mask wearing, avoiding shaking hands and a two meter distance is staying for us for years now, I start to fear that this will have an effect how we behave in the future. Work culture has already changed, that's for sure.

Sure, it's very easy for a Finn. But I do miss the Latin way of women you know giving a kiss on the cheek.

:up:

How sick are they getting from it? Are you less sick when vaccinated? Otherwise we can stop vaccinating altogether and combat the pandemic how they did it in the old days. — Benkei

Very few get significantly sick or are hospitalized. https://www.yahoo.com/news/eight-hundred-cases-seven-hospitalizations-and-no-deaths-the-provincetown-outbreak-shows-vaccines-work-125324207.html

This is a pandemic for the unvaccinated. It's just an annoyance for the vaccinated.

Thanks.

Yes, we're well aware of your ideological stance and the resulting confirmation bias. God forbid fact-based decision making.

When the vaccines were introduced, they made clear the efficacy against the spread of the disease was not certain. Its protection against its effects was. The idea was that if enough people would be vaccinated at least they wouldn't end up in hospitals and cause an overload of the hospital system. When has this aim changed?

In other words, you are complaining about something nobody ever said would be the result of vaccination. Why? Because of your confirmation bias. Thank you for playing.

When the vaccines were introduced, they made clear the efficacy against the spread of the disease was not certain. Its protection against its effects was. The idea was that if enough people would be vaccinated at least they wouldn't end up in hospitals and cause an overload of the hospital system.

When has this aim changed? — Benkei

When the matter became so politicized, so ideologized that the public opinion became "Vaccinated people are perfectly safe."

Come forward with a more nuanced opinion, and you're branded as an antivaccer.

we're well aware of your ideological stance and the resulting confirmation bias. God forbid fact-based decision making. — Benkei

True, but...

When the vaccines were introduced, they made clear the efficacy against the spread of the disease was not certain. — Benkei

What sources are you using for your impression of institutions being clear that the efficacy of the vaccines at reducing transmission was uncertain? I remember a couple of articles in Stat and The BMJ making that point (both of which I believe I posted here at the time), but both articles were warning against what they saw as the strong trend toward panacea narratives. Were they just jumping at shadows, do you think?

What sources are you using for your impression of institutions being clear that the efficacy of the vaccines at reducing transmission was uncertain? — Isaac

Official statements by Pfizer and Moderna at the start of vaccination. I'm not aware of any other communication. And then came the good news that it reduces the rate of transmission of the alpha variant but that came again with the warning that is no guarantee for future variants.

Official statements by Pfizer and Moderna at the start of vaccination. — Benkei

You don't happen to have those to hand do you? I'll Google if not, so don't go to any effort. It just clashes with my memory of the way that issue was dealt with at the time, finding old news is never so easy as finding latest news on search engines, I never now how to get them to tell me what was said, not what is being said.

When the matter became so politicized, so ideologized that the public opinion became "Vaccinated people are perfectly safe." — baker

The original data showed that the vaccines had an effective rate in the 90+%, J and J slightly lower. Had enough people vaccinated, covid as it existed then would have been eradicated.

The effectiveness change occurred with the Delta variant. The vaccine protects against its effects, but not from its spread.

The reintroduction of masks and threats of shut down are caused by the irrational decision of the anti-vax people, who have convinced themselves that their right to die of the delta variant is sacred. If I were permitted to let you die and not be forced to heroically exhaust common resources to treat you, I'd buy into your Randian libertarian wet dream and let God sort out your bad decisions. But we don't live by that ethic today. If today's ethics require I protect against Darwin, they require you play along too.

Things like this is what I remember best:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-05-evidence-covid-vaccines-transmission.html

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/may/02/vaccinated-people-less-likely-to-pass-covid-on

It reduced transmission but didn't stop it.

I just got a booster. I went to the Walgreens and asked for it. They said they needed more paperwork. I said I didn't have any paperwork, so they said ok, which arm do you want it in?

I just got a booster. I went to the Walgreens and asked for it. They said they needed more paperwork. I said I didn't have any paperwork, so they said ok, which arm do you want it in? — frank

Thank you for getting it and for letting us know how difficult it is to stay protected or not.

I went to the grocery store and wore a mask because NicK hasn't gotten his vaccine. I also had a heart to heart talk with the store manager.
I told him why I am wearing a mask but I in no way want his staff to go back to mandatory masks because of my position. He explained why he was wearing one and said he doesn't want it mandatory either. I told him I thought that his staff deserved compensation for working through the pandemic. He said they had been. I said it sounded like it was being handled the way I would want it to. I also told him that he knows that I shop there because of their staff and they are still sanitizing their carts, one chain of 4 I used to shop at and the staff. I told him if you mandate masks again you are going to lose your best employees. So if you hear that it is coming down from "corporate" please let me know and I'll let my thoughts be known. I'm not afraid of advocating for employees, who have been loyal as fuck, especially at a place that I spend tens of thousands of dollars every year.
The manager appreciated my concern and assured me that if he needed customer's requests he would reach out to me.

I am not sure what is the right way is a other than everyone doing what they think is best for them.

Is that being part of the problem?

Have you come across this Lambada variant?

Is that being part of the problem? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I've been wearing a mask because 1) I could be a carrier, and 2) I want to help destigmatize mask wearing.

I pay close attention to hand sanitation and distancing to try to protect myself.

Would mandating masks help at this point? I don't know. I think somebody out there is having fun making up bullshit about the vaccine and posting it. It becomes almost a religious thing for some people to defy all the medical advice.

So I guess like 60 percent of Alabama will go into infection unvaccinated. :grimace: 1 or 2% of them will die.

Thanks, those are form a bit later than the time period I was thinking about, but I can't find anything from back then, so I will take your word for it, my memory is not what it used to be.

Why do I always read your words with a snivelling, high-pitched tone?

I haven’t heard anywhere that the virus can spread easily among the vaccinated, and your nasally diatribe failed to inform me of the contrary. One quote of some expert will suffice.

It becomes almost a religious thing for some people to defy all the medical advice. — frank

Your comment shows exactly the attitude which makes the problem worse.

Isn't that why we have governments in the first place? Containing us?

The belief that we could control a virus by controlling human beings is only the most recent mistake of man’s hubris.

Your comment shows exactly the attitude which makes the problem worse. — Isaac

I'm not sure which problem you mean.

I'm not sure which problem you mean. — frank

The problem of people resisting vaccination, mask-wearing, hand-washing, social-distancing...

Firstly, it's not medical advice, it's public health advice, you of all people should know the difference.

Secondly - the public health advice from the experts -

Nothing about the epidemiology or appropriate responses to covid-19 has been simple. Consequently, perspectives have varied even among highly trained and experienced professionals systematically evaluating the same data. Engaging in discussions about the validity of complementary or even contradictory inferences can support an effective response. However, it is not feasible to engage meaningfully within 280 characters or if value judgments are ascribed to only certain positions. Public health means that the consensus view may have blindspots, so we must encourage healthy debate and dialogue. Debate was stifled during covid-19 in the name of fear. We witnessed social media platforms censoring scientific views and positions, only later to rescind those bans (e.g. the lab leak hypothesis). But equally we have seen misinformation proliferate on social media platforms. How to manage, foster, and regulate social media businesses must be part of future disaster planning...

...Public health means going on TV and saying that the Governor is failing, not that people are failing. Yet, over and over, we heard experts lament that it was private gatherings and bad people, and not bad systems and weak leadership that failed. The inattention to the structural and network risks including structural racism that increased risks for some and not others is antithetical to public health. Shame-based messaging has no role in a pandemic. — Stefan Baral, epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, writing in the BMJ

People have legitimate reasons to be wary of both government advice and public health advice. Both have been wrong in the past, both have been shown to be swayed by monied interests, both have shown a shocking lack of transparency and a roundly condemned failure to properly gather and respond to the emerging data, both have been mired in controversy and not a single panel, nor advisory body isn't replete with those either lobbied by or directly invested in the pharmaceutical industry.

People may well be wrong about resisting these policies, but it's absurdly naive to suggest it's similar to religious dogma.

People have legitimate reasons to be wary of both government advice and public health advice. — Isaac

Of course. I was talking about people who believe Bill Gates engineered the virus to make a profit off the vaccines. They're living in an alternate reality. I don't think there's any way to reach them. Apparently you haven't met any of them. It's really kind of astonishing how numerous they are.

Well if you look at the claims around the phase 3 trial, it's only about the efficacy of the protection of the vaccinated. No discussion about herd immunity at all. This came indeed later, around May, because evidence showed it cut transmission by half and then the delta variant made that news old quickly.

I think it's because a lot of vaccines do result in herd immunity that a lot of people assumed this would be the case as well.

Pretty cool that you are personifying me in your head. I didn't realise I'm that important to you. Alas, you just sound like me reading text. Anyhoo, as to the subject, you're turning it around. Show me one expert that claimed the Pfizer vaccine would halt transmission. There aren't any.

I only said that they never mentioned how quickly the virus can circulate among the vaccinated, specifically as it pertains to vaccine certificates, which are rolling out across the globe. In fact, such a scenario was only recently modelled and released just yesterday.

Abstract
Vaccines are thought to be the best available solution for controlling the ongoing SARS-CoV-2 pandemic. However, the emergence of vaccine-resistant strains may come too rapidly for current vaccine developments to alleviate the health, economic and social consequences of the pandemic. To quantify and characterize the risk of such a scenario, we created a SIR-derived model with initial stochastic dynamics of the vaccine-resistant strain to study the probability of its emergence and establishment. Using parameters realistically resembling SARS-CoV-2 transmission, we model a wave-like pattern of the pandemic and consider the impact of the rate of vaccination and the strength of non-pharmaceutical intervention measures on the probability of emergence of a resistant strain. As expected, we found that a fast rate of vaccination decreases the probability of emergence of a resistant strain. Counterintuitively, when a relaxation of non-pharmaceutical interventions happened at a time when most individuals of the population have already been vaccinated the probability of emergence of a resistant strain was greatly increased. Consequently, we show that a period of transmission reduction close to the end of the vaccination campaign can substantially reduce the probability of resistant strain establishment. Our results suggest that policymakers and individuals should consider maintaining non-pharmaceutical interventions and transmission-reducing behaviours throughout the entire vaccination period.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95025-3

So much for vaccine certificates.

What they never mentioned was how quickly the virus can circulate among the vaccinated. — NOS4A2

Who are they? Pfizer and Moderna did mention it: they didn't know what the effect was so that would be somewhere between no effect to herd immunity through vaccination and every possibility in between. If by they you mean governments, well, not the first time political decisions aren't fact based, or as I suspect in this case, incorrectly interpreted with a large serving of wishful thinking.

I'm not in favour of vaccine passports by the way but I wouldn't be even if vaccination would lead to herd immunity.

I see. It's a serious issue, but glad to hear you're on the right side of it.

Apparently you haven't met any of them. — frank

No, not really. It's something of an urban legend over here that such people exist in America... you guys do everything so much bigger over there, even your version of stupid is bigger than ours.

I am in favor of vaccine passports. You can't immigrate to the US without all sorts of vaccinations. https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccination-immigration/revised-vaccination-immigration-faq.html#newcriteria

You can't attend school without vaccinations.

What's so special about covid that it in particular violates our rights when it is required?

The primary difference between the measles vaccine and the covid vaccine is that the former was developed during a time when we believed in medical science and not in unsupported conspiracy theories. We'd be stuck with measles today if the vaccine were developed today.

I’m just a layman and am relaying my own, admittedly limited knowledge, as conferred to me by everyone from public health officials, journalists and politicians. From here forward I’ll be sure to include pharmaceutical companies.

even your version of stupid is bigger than ours. — Isaac

You have no idea. Some Americans believe the vaccine has a nano tracking device in it. Like, they really believe that.